Indoor Row Connecting to Concept2 FE-C as "Trainer"

Sure, it is complicated and it is more a job for Firstbeat than for Garmin. Use HRV and power and other metrics to estimate your VO2 max using machine learning. But ... Thanks to the precision of Concept2 they could do it.

VO2 max for rowing is probably too small market. It would be great but I don't think it will happen. Would adding this feature really bring more customers to Garmin? There are likely higher priorities.

I guess it will be again rather sone smaller company implementing that in an attempt to get some customers. Like COROS or Stryd etc.

Seems like the best way to get Garmin to implement a feature is through Coros.

Look here:

https://www.firstbeat.com/en/user-stories/princeton-rowing-making-waves-firstbeat-sports-technology/

https://www.firstbeat.com/en/blog/princeton-rowing-use-new-firstbeat-and-garmin-health-solution-for-effective-remote-training/

Maybe it's rather collaborations like this that will lead to new features that we will all benefit from at some point.

Thanks for this Crispin! I just installed the beta and did a test row to see how it worked.

Did you have to manually configure your datafields for the "Pace versus Target" and intervals, or did the watch automatically pick up on that?

I've been looking forward to this type of integration for years - this is HUGE for the rowing community.

To address a question I think was asked upthread: it seems you have to manually start and stop your "Row Indoor" activity on the watch - it won't auto-start or stop in sync with the PM5. It will, however, pull all the other data (stroke, HR, power etc) from the erg.

An advantage I see here: Training Load calcs. If you let your watch continue to record HR after you stop pulling, it's grabbing recovery HR over time which can factor into a bunch of metrics. If you're using another app (wired connection to ErgData) it sends accurate data to the C2 log.

The dilemma I'm going to have now is when to use this. Some apps like ASensei (iOS), or EXR (iOS, Android) only allow a wireless BTLE connection - which I think means you have to give up using ANT+FE-C connectivity while using them. No biggie since they sync to the C2 log themselves, and you can still log "indoor row" on the Fenix without connecting to the PM5.

Otto-Destruct said:

Did you have to manually configure your datafields for the "Pace versus Target" and intervals, or did the watch automatically pick up on that?

No, those extra data screens with the target gauge automatically appear if you’re executing a workout, in the steps that have targets. The same with the rest screen countdown.

Otto-Destruct said:

The dilemma I'm going to have now is when to use this. Some apps like ASensei (iOS), or EXR (iOS, Android) only allow a wireless BTLE connection - which I think means you have to give up using ANT+FE-C connectivity while using them

I don’t know about the apps you mention, but I had the ErgData app on my iPhone connected to my PM5 via Bluetooth, at the same time as the Fenix was connected via ANT FE-C, and both received and recorded data just fine from the PM5.

Crispin_Ellisdon said:

I do wonder if the PM5 will stop transmitting some/all data during its programmed rest periods

I jut did a short test.

Programmed the PM5 with a variable workout as follows: 

- 20s row

- 20s row

- 10s rest

- 20s row

- 10s rest

- 20s row

- 10s rest

- 100m row

- 10s rest

which resulted in this 392m activity, on Concept2 Logbook https://log.concept2.com/profile/1321473/log/48575977

Unfortunately, on Garmin watch side there's a different story - https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/5863168288

I have 1208m ?!?!. 

I've heard after the first 10s rest - a lap alert, and then another lap alert after the 2nd 10s rest time. 

I have my watch configured to do an automatic lap at every 500m. And, I can only assume that somehow it considered the Interval finished alert sent by PM5 as real lap and added 500m wrongly

------------------------------------------------

Before that I had a real activity:  a 3x1500m with 2min rest in between workout pre-programmed on my watch and started, PM5 in "just row" mode. 

Garmin: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/5863147476

C2Log: Concept2 Logbook | 20:23 row on November 23, 2020

the 2 minutes rest times are not visible on Garmin's power/pace/stroke rate graph, there some kind of weird 71spm peak at the rest times, and 60w power(lowest) where it should be 0

LE: And here's how Strava sees the 2 activities coming from different sources

Coming from Garmin - it definitely sees the pause time in terms of speed, but not power or cadence

Coming from ErgData

I did a quick bit of testing on this last night.  In summary, the PM5 still transmits pace and distance data whilst in the rest intervals, but it 'freezes' the values for power and stroke rate.  Both the PM5 and ErgData simply pause data recording during the rest intervals, but the Garmin watch caries on recording whatever is being transmitted, hence the odd results.  This all seems to be in line with what you have observed too.  I don't think this is a bug on Garmin's side; the watch is simply recording whatever the PM5 transmits in real time; it's just something to be aware of I suppose, if you use the interval workouts on the PM5 but record the activity on the Fenix..

I noticed some power output conflicts as well, while using an Iphone connected to PM5 via BLE (with Rowedbiker App running) and  to the Fenix 6 via BLE.
Not at the beginning of the workout, but after a while it seems that are some buffer overflow somewhere. Issue seems more on BLE interfaces than on ANT+ FE-C : my FX6 recorded perfectly all the PM5 data and is aligned with the PM5 log.

Edit

After full successful workouts with an Iphone not connected to my Fenix 6 (all PM5 , FX6 indoor rowing, Edge 530 with Erg IQ logs are aligned no drops out),  my intermediate conclusion is that Garmin FX6 with the new Garmin indoor rowing with ANT FE-C shall not be paired/connected (via BLE) while rowing to an Iphone running Rowedbiker or Ergdata or other IOs App connected by BLE to PM5. Probably the -C (Control) of FE-C  send spurious messages from/back to Iphone over BLE

Otto-Destruct said:

I have a theory as to why: Garmin's "bias" (if you call it that) is to accuracy of physiological metrics. If you run a 5k and have your watch set to "auto-pause when stopped," your data gets skewed by the missing "rests".

I don’t think this is Garmin’s approach per se, as the watch does have an auto-pause setting for outdoor GPS activities, but I agree you really need to record those mid activity ‘rest periods’ if you are to get the full picture of training load and effect for that activity (not just recording the ‘good bits’ of harder work and movement).

Otto-Destruct said:

The canonical dataset if you're trying to submit a row to be ranked is the Concept2 "verified" data which only apps like ErgData (and a few others) will do.

Yes, if you want to submit a timed distance to Concept 2 for ranking, it must be done as a continuous activity with all breaks or rests included; which is why you must programme the PM5 with the single distance or time trial (which will not ‘stop the clock’ if you pause rowing) and you cannot use the ‘Just Row’ or intervals features on the PM5. So, in this way, Concept 2’s approach to pausing on some occasions, but not others, is a little inconsistent. I personally feel the PM5 is ‘robbing’ me of the metres I row during rest intervals, as they don’t get counted; so I will actually prefer to do programmed interval workouts on the Fenix now, so I get all of the metres, and have the PM5 in Just Row mode (or better still, a set distance/time that covers the planned interval workout, so the PM5 doesn’t pause mid activity).