Indoor Row Connecting to Concept2 FE-C as "Trainer"

Hey all, just wanted to point out that my F6 Sapphire is doing ANT FE-C discovery on Indoor Row - is there an expectation that Indoor Row should be pulling power, stroke, or speed data into the activity from this?

If so, that'd be amazing in the futurejust saying : )

  • I often saw a discrepancy between the Concept 2 Logbook data and the same data uploaded to Strava from Concept 2

    I've also observed this in my activities. But, to be honest, I did not cared some much - I knew what kind of activity  I had programmed on my PM5 and what I did. If someone is confused by my strava recording, he/she should ask Smiley. And, usually, I have some description there. 

    I do wonder if the PM5 will stop transmitting some/all data during its programmed rest periods

    Do let us know if you will test this. I also had it in my mind but after I did the rowing test session earlier. 

    In the end, I see the details of activity while doing it, on my PM5, on my ErgData phone app. So the total time in GC, after it's not so important. The Concept2 like auto-pause feature would just be a bonus now after so many months waiting for connection possibility

    I'm more curious how/if Garmin will use the new distance/power/stroke rate for training status/exercise load update. 

  • To be honest, the greatest benefit I'm seeing is being able to run far more complex workouts than the PM5 can cope with.  Even though Concept 2 include lots of recommendations for varied interval sessions in their training guide https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/training/Training_Guide.pdf, the PM5 can't actually be programmed to execute them (the pyramid intervals I did are a perfect example); if you subscribe to the Concept 2 workout of the day emails, you'll quickly find how limited and repetitive they are when the PM5 is the only tool.  Multisport will probably have crossfit types excited too; you could record a session in the gym switching between rowing, strength training and cardio, that will be kept together as one thing in the Garmin ecosystem.

    I agree about the training status, but I wouldn't hold your breath.  Getting any activity beyond running, cycling and swimming to contribute to training status, is going to be an uphill battle (but we can always hope).

  • Getting any activity beyond running, cycling and swimming to contribute to training status,

    Training Status is based on VO2Max.  Those come from the running, walking and cycling (with a power meter) profiles.  Unless there's been a change I'm not aware of, swimming doesn't contribute to training status. 

  • I wondered whether the addition of critical swim speed to pool swimming had brought swimming in to the training status equation; I guess not.  So one can swap walking in for swimming in my earlier list Smiley.  My point is that I doubt we'll see Training Status extended to indoor rowing (or outdoor rowing for that matter), when there are many more mainstream activities that still don't contribute to it yet.  Essentially Firstbeat/Garmin would have to do a whole load of research in to each sport, to develop an equivalent metric to VO2 Max to measure; I can see that might be more juice than is worth the squeeze.  All that said, rowing already does contribute to training load and recovery times (as do most activities that track HR), so it's not that the rowing data isn't contributing to the information the Garmin ecosystem offers you.

  •  My point is that I doubt we'll see Training Status extended to indoor rowing

    I agree.  I wish there were a way to add all training into training status.  Garmin having similar names and features such as training status, training load and training effect adds to the confusion.  It would be nice to have a chart or a list which shows which activity contributes where. 

  • I'd say it would be a shame if they leave out the last little bit to make this perfect; VO2max.

    I mean, the prerequisites for running is HR+GPS pace, for cycling it's HR + Power.
    In simple terms we're "only" talking about comparing input (HR) with output (watts).

    Well, now they've made the effort to bring power to rowing, why stop without implementing VO2max?

    I understand that one cycling watt might not be equal to one rowing watt, but I believe it wouldn't require too much effort to find some kind of translation so that they could utilize the same algorithms for rowing as they've already used for cycling for many years.

  • I'm not sure power universally applies to the sport of rowing, in the same way it does for cycling.  I don't recall ever seeing power meters in real world outdoor boats as you do see on virtually every road bike now.  So that probably only leaves pace as the common metric that would need to be the input (Concept 2 have a chart on their website to convert directly from pace to power, so it's all rather academic for indoor rowing anyway).  The issue then becomes the number of input variables and what is the common/recognised standard anyway; it's just not as simple as it is for running or walking pace.  In running/walking there is one person of a given weight and only two varying metrics to measure to calculate VO2 Max (pace and HR - when you're on the flat and there's no wind).  In rowing there are many other variables; there's a big difference between the pace that an 8 crew would get for a given HR versus one of that same crew in a single skull.  So, we are probably kidding ourselves if we think this is a simple thing for Garmin to do.

  • I'd say it would be a shame if they leave out
    Well, now they've made the effort to bring power to rowing, why stop without implementing VO2max?

    I wasn't saying they shouldn't.

    I wish there were a way to add all training into training status.

    I think Garmin's use of VO2Max for training status doesn't give a correct representation of your true training.  Once a VO2Max is calculated, I think all training should count towards training status.  For example, I have my VO2Max calculated from running.  If I now choose to do the 60 day Insanity cardio program and pause my running, those workouts will show on training load and training effect, but my training status will drop from improving or maintaining to unproductive.  If you're familiar with the Insanity Program I used as an example, you'd see this clearly wouldn't be the case.

  • Just look here ... www.concept2.com/.../vo2max-calculator

    Concept2 ergometer is a perfect way to measure VO2 max. It is often used for that. There is likely a ton of precise measurements that coaches already have when they test their athletes in rowing clubs. Sure the total power output depends on weight but not a lot as you are sitting and sliding. The erg is measuring power very precisely. Probably on par with best bike power meters. There are indoor championships in rowing and people compete on different machines.

    So yes .. it would be possible to get VO2 max for rowing. For sure more precise than running!

  • That would outwardly seem promising and the equation detailed in the FAQs is very simple, but it is specific/limited to using a Concept 2 rower only (which I agree is an excellent+consistent standard and why indoor rowing competitions are credible); other sources of rowing data (other brands of indoor rowers and real outdoor rowing) might not compare so easily or well, which could make things impossible to resolve for Garmin. It would be a similar problem if Garmin started to use running power for VO2 Max instead of pace, unless everyone used the Garmin running power model, rather than say Stryd or RunScribe, then the VO2 Max numbers would be all over the place, as there’s no definitive standard for running power (unlike cycling power which is a directly measured explicit value).  Just putting my own data in to the Concept 2 calculator, there’s a variance in VO2 Max of 8 if I just switch between highly trained (54) and not highly trained (46); Concept 2 do heavily caveat the numbers in their notes. Finally, whilst the Concept 2 equation is relatively simple, it is calculated from a 2000m PB; not something you do every day (or even every week).  There would have to be a way of estimating VO2 Max from ‘normal’ training intensities for it to be of any use for Training Status, thus not a trivial thing to add.