Survey for using instant vs step pace on the workout screen

Garmin-Brooks said:

I am curious though why step pace is useless

Garmin-Brooks I don't think that step pace is useless. When doing long intervals or long runs it could be enough. But why should we not be able to see also instant pace? Especially for short intervals, say  for example 400 meters, step pace is very slow to react, only after the first 200 meters it begins to show a realistic number. In the first 200 meters, instant pace is much better especially if you use a footpod. It's two years that I have the FR945, but I never use the beautiful "Workout screen" because I want to see both lap pace and instant pace in the data page. So instead of the workout screen, I use my usual screen with "lap time", "lap pace" and "instant pace". It's really a pity that I don't use the workout screen. Some people told in this forum that before the FR945, the graph was showing both values: there was an arrow for instant pace and the colour was indicating step pace, so one had a graphical idea both of step pace and instant pace. But I don't know if this is correct, because in the FR945 the arrows and the colour show only step pace. Please, please, Garmin-Brooks: we need both instant pace and step pace ! By the way this is particularly true if you have a footpod: without footpod instant pace of gps is slow to react, so if you start the interval from a stationary state, it behaves exactly like step pace in the first 200 meters, so it doesn't make a big difference. But if you have a footpod, it would be nice to look both at step pace, instant pace and at the beautiful graphs (so if one is running fast, he doesn't need to read the entire number, but it would be enough to look at the colour of the graph). 

Maybe you guys are already doing this; obviously I don't know. So last night I had a 2 mile steady state, a mile recovery and 4 200's. Tapering down for a race so this was a good workout to do some experimenting as the workout idea was just to not get stale and if it didn't look pretty in Connect no big deal. Here's what I did.

For the two mile steady state I had my watch on this screen per usual, because the feedback I got back from the people I've reached out to agreed, we have common ground when it comes to steady states, long runs, etc. It does appear our difference is in short intervals. 

I fully understand what every one is saying, step pace does seem to have some lag to it which in an 800 no big deal it normally works itself out after 100-150 meters, in a 400 or 200 that could be 25%-50% of the repeat which is no good. Just from the level of user that it seems is using the forums vs calls or chat, I would assume it's common knowledge at this point that you can change your data fields even in a custom workout correct? I'm going to ask the question just because I don't want to assume. Thanks to this thread I've changed how I'm going to do my 200-400s. If you are already doing this cool, if not I'm providing this as a potential work around. I did submit an experience ticket yesterday, and I'm still collecting data from users who want the ability to change, just @ me on this thread because I need information from your watch, I'll direct message you so it doesn't need to be public. 

Anyway the workaround is pretty basic but it accomplishes the goal essentially. Because you can change watch faces in an activity you can customize a screen that looks nearly identical to the workout screen. The only difference are the red-green-red bar. However with this being a screen I was using for 200m repeats, and my auto lap being set for 1600m lap pace essentially became step pace because the step was going to end before the auto lap would engage. Pace is set to Pace instead of step pace, and then Lap distance is again essentially step distance because the step would be over before the lap would, which automatically laps your watch and starts the timer over for your next step of your workout. Now I know the red-green-red bars are gone. You still get your alerts on this screen, note this screen will be of a heart rate alert because it's a lot easier to take pictures of the heart rate alert than pace alerts, (pace alert won't trigger unless the watch is moving, and I'm not that good of a photographer, but it works the same way). 

I 

Garmin-Brooks Yes, the data page that you use for intervals is exact the same that I use when doing intervals. It's the same page that I also used with my old watch, the FR610, and it works good, so I'm not saying that with the FR610 or the FR945 we can't do intervals. 

The only problem is that I use the FR945 in the same old way, but I miss the two big advantages that I could have with the FR945:

1- as you say, the "red-green-red bars" are gone. This graphical feature is a very nice feature and it's a pity that we can't use it during intervals. Especially when running fast, it's quite inconvenient to read numbers, it would be much better to just look at the color to see if we are in the right step pace zone and to see if the arrow of the instant pace speed is in the desired zone (so about in the middle of the green area). So the FR945 has the potential to be a great watch because of his graphical capability, but these graphical capability are not used in the best way.

2- Another nice feature of the FR945 are the audio alerts. Let's imagine to start an interval, we know that for short intervals heart rate has a lag (it reaches high level only at the end of the intervals). So I usually use pace as target. I run with the earbuds and it would be a very nice feature to hear when we are out our target zone. Again, the FR945 has the potential to do this, but again this is not used, because the alert is step pace and not instant pace. When I run fast short intervals, I hate to look at my watch because I lose speed and I lose my running form, it would be very nice to hear the audio alerts. It all works fine with audio alerts in earbuds, the only bad thing is that audio alerts are step pace and not instant pace. So particularly at the beginning of the interval I have to continue to look at my watch to see if instant pace is in the right zone, and I can't trust at the beginning the audio alerts of step pace because they become realistic only after half of the interval (so after 200-300 meters).  It's true that it's possible to have pace alerts also for instant pace outside the interval training setting. The disadvantage of this  pace alerts is that you can't set one different alert  for  every  step, but for the whole run. So I never use this feature because if I stop after the interval for the rest period, the pace alert would become to ring saying that the pace is too low. If it was possible to select instant pace for the interval training, I could have audio alerts of pace for that particular step

So in my experience I am now using my FR945 in the same old way of the FR610, but I'm missing the graphical (the colour are much better than numbers) and I miss that I can't use the audio alerts.

Now I am using audio alerts for heart rate and pace only in my long runs: I set a high alarm for pace and heart rate and when I exceed the limit, I can hear in the earbuds that my pace is too fast, without looking at my watch. Very nice. It would be very nice to have this also for intervals both for low alerts and high alerts and be able to set different limits for every step (otherwise there is only one limit for the whole run, good for long runs, not for interval training). 

And it would be nice to have the color to see that we are in the green zone for step pace (so the average pace is within our goals) and a graphical arrow that shows us if in this particular moment we are running right at the target pace (arrow in the middle), or a bit too fast (arrow in the right of the green zone or in the red zone) , or too slow (arrow on the left). 

I think you are onto something. I mean if that workout data field with bars and graphics would be selectable datafield in "Graphical" like  "Workout gauge" or something.

Then people could do pretty much identical ones with the data they would want to have.

In the meantime that we discuss the best solution to have the best possible "workout screen", a tentative solution could be very easy to do without modifying anything big.

Now the "workout screen" shows the green colour expanded when we are in the right zone and an arrow that indicates the step pace. For example if the set speed is 6:45 to 7:15 min/mile, the arrow would be exact in the middle of the green zone when step pace is 7:00 min/mile. It would be enough to add another "red arrow" for instant pace, that shows only our instant pace. For example, if we are running at 6:40 min/mile and our step pace is 7:10 min/mile, the black arrow would be pointing in the green zone but a bit on the left, while the red arrow would be in the red bar and directed in the right. So it would be enough to add a red arrow to radically improve the actual behaviour of the "workout screen". It wouldn't be necessary to read the exact number of the instant pace, it would be enough to know that the red arrow is pointing to the right, that means that we have to slow down. If the red arrow is near the limit of the green bar and red bar, we would know that our instant pace is about 6:45 min/mile.

Garmin-Brooks Maybe the step pace arrow could remain black exactly how it is now, and the instant pace could be a red line from the center to the point of instant pace. In this way step pace indicator and instant pace indicator would have both color and graphical aspect different (arrow for step pace, a simple line from the center of the watch to the colour bars for instant pace)

Same here - the 945 has everything for this to work - but isn't able to due to using the wrong pace value.

I gave up.

Garmin-Brooks I was one of the original posters also - current pace would be useful please. Especially if using a footpod for super accurate pacing speeds.

@ME

If my memory serves well this used to work different (better) at the begining ie. version 8-9.

The pace indicator showed instant pace against defined range and pace value showed the step pace (or other way around but both metrics were on the screen). 

Now (ver. 20 and few earlier) they both indicate the same: step pace. So the information about the instant pace (how much off the target I am in the given moment) is not there.

And as this discussion shows many runners would like to make use of both metrics: step pace and instant pace. 

Thanks for bringing it back any time soon!

Best regards, 

Zigi

Garmin-Brooks said:

You still get your alerts

Correct me if I’m wrong but you get allerts against step pace being off the defined range and not against instant pace.  

As this making no big difference for short intervals it’s useless in easy/long/steady runs because the more into the workout the smaller are changes in step pace. So your instant pace might become way off the range before you you get any alert.

E.g. After injury break I lost my feel of pace and tend to run too fast. Especially I run too fast when I try to keep good cadence therefore I would like to make use of target pace even for or especially for easy runs.

Let’s say I set target pace of easy run for 5:05-5:15. After few km I only get alerts when I’m running way off the limits. So insted getting alerts when pace is below 5:15 or above 5:05 I get them when e.g, below 5:25 or above 4:50. And especially 4:50 and above is something I want to avoif in such run.

And I don’t have to explain to anybody here what it would mean if you get your alert 15-20 seconds instead of 5 seconds off the target in steady run at e.g. threshold pace.

I just wanted to add my voice to this. I'm following Coach Greg's 10k plan and enjoying it, but this had me really confused. I don't find it intuitive that it averages over the entire workout step. Now that I know how it works things start to make sense but I am someone else that would like the target pace screen to show "current" pace.
During yesterday's run I had a 10 minute workout step at goal pace, I ended up going a lot faster at the end of the step than I was meant to because I misunderstood that screen and obviously thought the pace showing 9 minutes in to the workout step was my current pace when actually it was average. I had to go up a staircase at one point so it was showing slower than I expected.
I'm using a FR935.