Alway anaerobic shortage

flocsy🤠 said:

Yes, I have Auto Detect Max HR

I would turn this off. From the Garmin doc, this only increases your Max HR from the basic 220-age or from a prior reading if the new reading is higher and assessed as reliable.

If your actual HR Max is lower, it will never be corrected down.

I would reset to 220-age. You have 68% change to be within 12bpm of this value, but it is better than nothing. You can find more complicated formulas online that have a lower standard deviation.

Nothing will replace an actual HR Max lab or field test.

HR Max field test are extremely hard, and you should get your doctor's blessing.

This is important: your HR Max is not your peak HR during any workout. Period. The HR Max workouts designed to get you there will get you maybe within a couple of bpm from your true HR Max, but you will never know for sure, because HR is subject to many other influences.

From my experience, MR Max workouts are not the kind of workout you do regularly because they are extremely hard, but they will get you the best estimate.

Getting an accurate HR Max is paramount in the Garmin ecosystem, because all the metrics like load, recovery, training effect are based on EPOC, and EPOC is based on your VO2 Max metrics, on the ratio of your HR vs. VO2 Max HR. Your VO2 Max estimate is way more accurate when:

- you do VO2 Max type efforts (ie very hard workouts)

- your physiological data is accurate on the watch: age, weight and... HR Max

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

how do you interpret/convert for yourself this sort of advices

As you say, you don't have the information to design workouts based on % of VO2 Max, because the pace or power curve associated with that VO2 rest to VO2 Max variation is hidden from you.

For each period of work during a workout, the watch is evaluating the oxygen deficit based on HR and HRV data in the context of the work produced (pace/VO2 Max pace) and the ventilation rate (HR / VO2 Max HR).

For each rest period during the workout, additionally, the watch takes into account excess ventilation remaining during rest periods to correct the overall oxygen deficit accumulation.

The maximum EPOC in the context of your VO2 Max data is used to determine which metabolic system has been used, and at which intensity. This is done in real time.

Once the workout is done, the balance of contribution between aerobic and anaerobic is finalized and you can determine the sub segments (low vs high aerobic when anaerobic is low, and anaerobic when aerobic and anaerobic are high).

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

“Speed training 10 x 50m x 150-200%VO2max / 3min“

Just to clarify, this is the ratio of the speed at VO2 Max, not the HR :-)

Still you don't know that VO2 Max speed so you can't calculate it.

The best thing to do is to use the LT test, LT speed/power, LT HR to design your workouts. If you use the watch to test these, you are using the same data that the watch is using for the VO2 Max model.

The only thing that could be in your way is one these 2 things:

- your VO2 Max model data is biased because of lack of hard workouts. Hence the need to have a balanced training

- your VO2 Max model is off because of inaccurate HR Max, or other data capture issues (HR sensor, power or pace capture).

Gavriel,

in case you had your doctor's blessing it is you will face with "Parallelly I tested it on my own, so there was no guidance, just a HR strap and I had checked what was the proposed method to get the real max. These times were really painful,  after them I had a kind of burning hurt in my lungs for at least a day."

Etupes25 said:

From the Garmin doc, this only increases your Max HR from the basic 220-age or from a prior reading if the new reading is higher and assessed as reliable.

If your actual HR Max is lower, it will never be corrected down.

My experience, which was shared in another thread, was just a sort of opposite bug/mistake: my F6X lowered my HR max even if I had had higher HRs achieved and recorded by F6X recently  than the new max.

Example: earlier HRmax had been set was somewhere between 186-188 bpm. Recent (exactly 20 days earlier) real HR max achieved and recorded was like 178 bpm. The new HRmax algorithm using all day HRV data gave me a new HR max of something like 170 bpm, which is not far away from the 220-age. But it is a shame, not an algorithm.

Etupes25 said:

The best thing to do is to use the LT test, LT speed/power, LT HR to design your workouts. If you use the watch to test these, you are using the same data that the watch is using for the VO2 Max model.

Sure, it is what I did. But nevertheless we get advices from Firstbeat/Garmin to run at 1xx%VO2Max speed/pace. 

And I do not understand why? Firstbeat is a company which promotes LT HR and LT pace for running, plus LT HR and FTP for cycling.

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

And I do not understand why?

I am with you. I know this is more a benchmark from a science/lab/research perspective. For practical reasons, it is much easier to use LT.

Running is a bit more complex because work is harder to evaluate. I hope that Garmin will complete the migration to running power, give us our running power-duration curve so we can see what the watch sees and eventually correct  and maintain the data.

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

But it is a shame, not an algorithm.

Well, it is just a linear regression. We know that about 68% of people will be between plus or minus 12 bpm from that value. This means that about a third will be even further. There are formulas with slightly more complicated calculations that have a lower standard deviation, but there will be always a standard deviation. So there will always be people with enough error to throw off their VO2 max accuracy more than the base 5%.

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

my F6X lowered my HR max even if I had had higher HRs achieved and recorded by F6X recently  than the new max.

I have seen reports like this. My understanding is that a recent firmware update with an updated HR Max detection actually reset the HR Max to the default value, which is 220-age. Not confirmed by Garmin.

The point for you though, is that you know that your HR Max is significantly higher that this formula. So keep it at your best estimate, and don't rely on the auto detection.

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

Former Member said:

By the way, it would be much clearer to have 3 datafields on Fenixes:

1. LowAeTE

2. HighAeTE

3. AnTE

Maybe it is possible, although the data might be jumpy as the EPOC passes some thresholds during the workout.

I would suggest you look at stamina instead, with a time to exhaustion (vs distance) remaining:

Although it will not give you a 1:1 match to the training effect calculated on the watch, the following is a good guideline in general and is usable during a workout

- if your actual stamina doesn't drop below your potential stamina, you are in a steady state mode, typically of low aerobic

- if your actual stamina drops slightly form your potential stamina but remains green, you are in a high aerobic range. Typically a rest period will restore the stamina back to potential in a few minutes.

- if your stamina crashes and becomes red, you are likely depending much more on your anaerobic contribution. Resting periods would need to be around 5mn or more to restore to potential. If you keep depressing the stamina without giving it the time to level back out again during rest periods, and you bring the stamina down a few times (on the watches it will never go to zero, but it will level off at 5 -10mn maximum remaining duration), you will get most likely an anaerobic or sprint workout.

It was already a bit suspicious when you wrote about running power, but now, having seen your advice for me to check stamina I start to think you have a Fenix 7, not a 6. Because afaik Stamina is not available for us, Fenix 6 users.

Etupes25 said:

Maybe it is possible, although the data might be jumpy as the EPOC passes some thresholds during the workout.

Maybe it might be not a good approach if the relationship between TE and EPOC is not a continuous function, but a sort of step function. Anyway it would be fully in line with my experience as regards anaerobic TE. 

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

Because afaik Stamina is not available for us, Fenix 6 users

You are right. Sorry about that. Scratch that.

Tisztul_A_Visztula said:

I agree, but I dont know whether you meant "migration to running power" as something which can be used in the future only with Fenix 7 and likes (so native Garmin running power)

Yes, same thing, you would need Garmin running power at a minimum, so that there is always data to replace pace in the current running algorithm. That would be a big change, even for new models like Epix 2/F7