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Impressions of daily suggested workout feature

nradov
over 2 years ago

After finishing my last triathlon for the year, I did an informal n=1 experiment with (mostly) following the Garmin daily suggested workout feature for a few months. I alternated between running and cycling workouts most days of the week, plus weekly strength training and occasional other random activities. Since I didn't have a specific event to train for, I was just curious to see what would happen.

Results were not very good. Despite putting in about the same number of training hours per week as before this little experiment, my performance metrics including VO2 Max, FTP, and Lactate Threshold Heart Rate all got worse (lower). On the positive side, my Resting Heart Rate reduced by a few beats per minute. There was no significant change in my weight, diet, sleep, or other factors so I'm going to assume the performance decline was due to the change in workouts. My impression is that the suggested workouts generally involved too much base training, which for me doesn't seem very effective.

Yes, I am familiar with the research on polarized and "80/20" training which recommends spending the bulk of time on Zone 2 base training. No doubt those plans work well for many athletes, especially those doing a higher volume of training. Since I have very limited training time, I seem to get better results by doing more higher-intensity workouts and I don't have trouble recovering from those.

I think the main issue with the daily suggested workouts is that they can essentially create a positive feedback loop (in the control systems sense of the term). The duration and intensity of the workouts is keyed off of your current performance metrics plus HRV and sleep. So, if you have a rough few days then the watch will suggest a shorter, lower-intensity workout, which causes your fitness to decline further, and so on in a downward spiral.

This is just my impression as an average age-group triathlete. I am not complaining or asking for any particular product changes. The daily suggested workout feature can be fine within certain limits, and I'll continue using it occasionally, but you have to understand what it's doing and not expect too much.

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    I exercise for health, weight management and fitness rather than to "train" for competitive events. Nonetheless I do ride on Zwift pretty much daily and race on the platform occasionally. I've also had my doubts about the validity of daily suggested workouts.

    One big alarm bell is that the workout suggestion is generated at midnight, before the watch has any clue about my rest, recovery, HRV, sleep quality etc etc.

    I've tried following the suggestions for several days, maybe 2-3 weeks, but ultimately they become nonsense. This is especially so when you fail to take a complete "rest day" and then your watch is stuck with the same "rest" suggestion day after day, even if you've only performed light exercise.

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    I followed the daily suggestion for a month or two, and found them not all that bad, a variety of base, short sprints, tempo runs and rest. But never any interval sessions like 800 or 400 meter repeats. As a rough guideline they were OK-ish but I prefer a custom training plan.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to eezytiger

    I also recall that the sprint/VO2 sessions on the bike were laughable in terms of anaerobic TE. Forecast effect maybe 2.5 or similar. Actual effect maybe 0.2, and all whilst performing the workout correctly in erg mode on a Neo 2.

    Definitely something wrong somewhere.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to eezytiger
    eezytiger said:
    I also recall that the sprint/VO2 sessions on the bike were laughable in terms of anaerobic TE.

    I had this issue on the Epix2 where the targets for sprints and VO2max intervals were laughable, too low. Therefore I was not receiving the expected training effect. I also noticed that the threshold goals were lowish (lower than my actual FTP)

    forums.garmin.com/.../1488975

    I found that these targets are depending on the Max Power numbers.

    One day on the trainer, after a low VO2 Max set of intervals, I got my HR relatively high at the end (I'd say it qualified for FTP/FRC zone). I then did maximal efforts on the trainer, shooting for max 1s and max 10s power intervals. The maximum power recorded on the training jumped from mid-500W to 1000W (all tracked with WKO5).

    Since then, the sprint and VO2 Max are much more challenging (from ~320W to 500W for Sprints, and ~260W to 300W for VO2Max intervals). Threshold intervals got bumped from 235W to 260W (for 240W FTP).

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to eezytiger

    Unfortunately the Fenix 6 (and probably other Garmin devices) just doesn't work properly to control a smart trainer for short 10 - 20 second sprint steps. When the watch sends the target power to the trainer it takes the trainer about 5 seconds to hit that power. And that's not a trainer defect, it's just mechanically how they work. So much of each sprint step ends up wasted at a lower power.

    If you want to do sprints then skip the daily suggested workout and create your own custom workout in Garmin Connect. Add extra steps to ramp up power before each sprint step so that you spend the full sprint time at the target power. This should give you a higher anaerobic training effect. 

    Unfortunately Garmin Connect doesn't allow you to create power ramp steps (like in Zwift), so you have to do the calculations manually and create a bunch of little 1 second steps with different power targets. The user experience on this stuff is so bad that I wonder if Garmin developers ever even use their own products? 

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to nradov
    nradov said:
    When the watch sends the target power to the trainer it takes the trainer about 5 seconds to hit that power. And that's not a trainer defect, it's just mechanically how they work.

    I see. I have my trainer set up as an external powermeter and an external speed sensor, not as a "trainer". But you are right, if you cannot use yours for very short sprints, you either could use a custom workout, or make the suggested one harder by shortening the rest period by 5s.

    If the power target is right still, even 5s intervals qualify for P/Max/FRC anaerobic intervals, per Dr Coggan's iLevels.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to nradov

    I can perform 10 second sprints quite well with my Neo 2 and the watch. Sure there is a lag when the power ramps up, a power overshoot, a bit of adjustment and a lag for the ramp back down. Overall I'm doing the expected power, but simply offset by a couple of seconds. I'm happy enough that I can perform the expected workout. Other trainers may be less capable.

  • 0 over 2 years ago
    nradov said:
    No doubt those plans work well for many athletes, especially those doing a higher volume of training. Since I have very limited training time, I seem to get better results by doing more higher-intensity workouts and I don't have trouble recovering from those.

    That makes sense. Short of time? Do higher-intensity to maximize gains. Still, watch for strains from overuse. Been there, done that.

    I also didn't want to spend hours on a traininer, so I disabled the long day ride. Workouts are about an hour for intense ones, and 1h30 for easy ones.

    nradov said:
    So, if you have a rough few days then the watch will suggest a shorter, lower-intensity workout, which causes your fitness to decline further, and so on in a downward spiral.

    A single "softer" workout will not take your fitness down. De-training will.

    I had a quadruple foot fracture in June, stopped all training, pick up in August doing only suggested cycling workouts on a trainer because of recovery. I skipped a dozen of hard and easy suggested workouts because I couldn't do them. Still, the watch adjusted and there was no downward spiral, on the contrary.

    Cycling VO2Max tanked from 57 in June to 51 in September, then bounced up to 56 today. Cycling FTP dropped from 260W pre injury to 220W post, back to 260W.

    Running VO2Max tanked from 57 to 48 (walking in August) but further recovery is bound by lack of hard effort as discussed above.

    As shared above, I found the suggested workouts design to be on the lower end of ideal targets while my VO2Max was increasing. Now that it is back, the targets are right on point.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    A single softer workout won't take your actual fitness down, but if you have a bad workout and the watch detects lower performance metrics then it may cut the intensity for the next suggested workout. If you follow that suggestion then it puts you on a path to de-training. At least that was my experience. 

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to nradov

    Interesting. It was not my experience.

    As you can see in my chart above, the cycling VO2 was picked up after the interruption, but was too high. During the course of the first 4 weeks, every time I trained following the daily suggestions, my performance condition was horrible (-8 to -5) and my VO2max decreased until it reached my actual degraded VO2Max, then stabilized for a couple of weeks, then started increasing again.