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Has Garmin completely lost the plot? - FTP and Training Status are nonsense on 23.00

eezytiger
over 2 years ago

My watch seems to be very confused. First a little background....

This year (2022) I wanted to focus on running instead of cycling. I was running almost exclusively indoors, so no VO2max data from Garmin. Unfortunately I developed some back problems and had to quit the running and return to cycling for my fitness. I only logged two "proper" outdoor runs this year, the last being in February. I resumed cycling in May and have been gradually restoring my lost fitness on the bike. Cycling VO2max had been rising steadily for the last several weeks.

Training Status has been consistently productive until training was interrupted by a short holiday at the end of August, then it switched to peaking or recovering.

That's fine, except now I appear to be stuck in "Recovery", regardless of what I do on the bike. My training status says it's based on my running VO2max trend.

Why? I haven't run since February, yet I cycle almost every day. Checking VO2max values in my fit files they are continuing to rise and my training load is increasing. So why is my status "Recovery" and not "Productive"? At a guess it's because Garmin is looking at my irrelevant running history instead of my more pertinent cycling performance.

Today I rode in a TT on Zwift with power meter and chest strap. I warmed up with a nice power ramp and held steady power throughout the TT. It was my best 20 minute and 30 minute power this year.

At the start of the ride my FTP was set to my Garmin FTP value of 232W in both the watch and in Zwift. Here's how the TT looked in Zwift (warm-up is not shown)....

   

Due to Garmin's low assessment of my FTP it was Z5 power from beginning to end and my 20 minute power was 262W.

Zwift gave me an FTP bump to 249W.

intervals.icu gave me an FTP bump to 254W.

Strava has estimated my FTP at 252W.

What did Garmin do? Absolutely nothing. Garmin FTP remains at 232W.

Furthermore, despite smashing the VO2 power zone and Threshold heart rate zone....

The watch thinks it was a Recovery ride. Are they insane?

And apparently I don't have any fitness....

And despite my VO2max being updated by this ride....

I don't have a VO2max trend. Well that's not true.

.  

But they appear to be looking at my non existent running stats instead of my up to date cycling stats.

It's a complete shambles. WTF are they looking at running instead of cycling? Please don't tell me it's because of a Walk I recorded at the end of August. How stupid would that be?!?!

And what's up with the FTP stuff? I know they look at HRV behaviour, but are they blind? I had a lovely warm-up ramp and reached threshold heart rate shortly before the end of the effort (that ought to be a hint that my FTP is higher than 232W), but DFA-Alpha1 never got anywhere near 0.75, never mind 0.5, if that's the metric they use.

So, have they lost the plot entirely, or have I, because something sure as hell isn't right?

  • 0 over 2 years ago
    eezytiger said:
    cycling? Please don't tell me it's because of a Walk I recorded at the end of August.

    I dont tell you, because you prohibited it :-), but in order to cut out the effect of slow moving activities to VO2max one has to opt for Hike instead of Walk. Personally I use only Walk and not Hike for all kind of “non-running moving feet” activities, but only because GC mobile has a filter for walk, but not for hike.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Tisztul_A_Visztula

    Haha, yes, I'm aware of the VO2max filter for Hike. The thing is, I recorded a few walks in August, most of which I forgot about, but when I went on my holiday (only four days) I did not cycle, but did walk and hike. TBH the"walk" should have been recorded as a hike, because it was pretty lumpy and my heart rate proves that. But as I recorded a "walk" I have to live with that decision. On my return I relaxed for a couple more days and thenI resumed cycling, no more walks and definitely no runs at all.

    I just do not understand why Garmin is fixated on my running data. I don't have any. It has clearly got its knickers knotted. I just want to know how to get things back on track. I mean, whilst my cycling VO2max was updated today, and yesterday, so was my running VO2max and I do not understand why.

    As for the FTP stuff, I've long had issues with that side of things. I really don't see that it's fit for purpose. Their HRV inflection algorithm simply doesn't work as it should. If they are using DFA-alpha1 then it's already been debunked as unreliable for threshold detection purposes.

    www.marcoaltini.com/.../updated-view-on-hrv-analysis-during-exercise-and-dfa-alpha-1

    So, the point of this post is really to flag a bug (or two) to Garmin, now that they've temporarily closed down the beta forum for bug posts, as we're no longer in beta.

    I truly don't know what they're playing at with this nonsense.

    - FTP wrong

    - Training Status wrong

    - VO2max being updated improperly

    - Training Effect wrong

    - Running metrics overriding cycling metrics when I haven't been running

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to eezytiger

    I understood that the inclusion of old runs was the real issue, which is against what Garmin explains in their support articles.

    But I cannot say more than I wrote just recently here https://forums.garmin.com/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/fenix-6-series/306486/hrv-widget-and-hrv-recording/1489282#1489282

    I mean: 

    Tisztul_A_Visztula said:
    But if it is common and easy for me to find small bugs and obvious discrepancies, how the hell I can trust in it that much more complicated algorithms are designed and coded well? How the heck I could trust the numbers my watch is spitting out?

    Not everybody on this forum agreed my way of thinking, but you raised just a new example, which underpins it.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to eezytiger

    Btw for me the most annoying thing is that although I have different Vo2max for running and for cycling, and I have different LT HR for running and cycling, GC shows one LT HR line, so even if my LT HRs are not changed, just confirmed by F6X, the chart is like a rectangle wave as regards LT HR. Provided I cycle and run frequently.

    The bonus is that after a cycling activity my “only” LT shown by GC at the bottom of the report is simply my cycling LT HR and my running LT pace. Beautiful, isn’t it?

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    jfc that's pretty nuts but I think you're not alone

    I'm almost currently on RECOVERY training status and can't seem to change it as of today(Ran twice this week both rated VO2max and THRESHOLD runs plus some other zone 2 runs. All were cataloged correctly but after a low exercise weekend the Training status seems to be stuck in RECOVERY regardless of these fast paced runs and being on Optimal acute load (700). We'll see if this changes by the end of this week.

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    Training Status failure has been resolved. I don't know how, but Garmin is once again using my cycling performance for assessment.

    And the watch is now showing my VO2max graph once again.

    I don't know whether this is because Garmin has finally woken up and spotted their mistake or if it is because I altered my most recent "walks" at the end of August to become hikes. Interestingly (maybe) the correction was only visible this morning upon waking. It was not immediately apparent after altering the activity types.

    Anyway, the crisis is over regarding Training Status. Just FTP estimation to be addressed.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to eezytiger

    So I've just started running (well doing run/walks) again after almost a year due to some health and injury issues. I've recorded a lot of walks and still do since I've started running again. Recording walking activities throws off my Vo2 max estimate and lowers it? I should be recording them as hikes moving forward? My VO2 max is crap right now I know, but I've been improving quite a bit since a month ago and not seeing any change in my estimate even though I have an improving training status.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Diggitydan6178

    Walking VO2max (and others)  is explained in this article....

    https://support.garmin.com/en-GB/?faq=lWqSVlq3w76z5WoihLy5f8

    The problem is that it is not easy to exceed 70% of MHR for simple walking, so most of the time, if not all the time, I wouldn't expect a walk to have any bearing on my VO2max score. And I think that remains true in my case.

    The problem for me appears to be that the watch keeps updating my running VO2max on the same day that I cycle, but do not run or walk..I think Garmin, or my watch, has got its wires crossed. I don't know how or why or how to get them uncrossed.

    Today I have only cycled, yet I have an updated running VO2max today. I wish they'd just drop it. When I actually do run, then they can update my running VO2max.

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    I'm also back to productive status! Literally went to sleep in recovery status and when i woke up it was in PRODUCTIVE... Little fishy if you ask me lol

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    I have the same issue and what annoys me the most is that Garmin themselves never respond to any of these issues. Since the syncing between Edge and the watches is not working for me either, i could consider to try another manufacturer but even that wouldn't concern Garmin. I have given up and use my Fenix as a fancy time piece.