VO2Max and Training status not updating despite high load and significant training improvements

I confirm my VO2Max AND Training status has not been updated since July despite the massive mileage for marathon of Berlin. Even today i run a 39" at 10k and my VO2MAX is 57 with a prediction of 42:30 at KM

Yes LT is lactate threshold. I have a Fenix 6s sapphire not an epix (sorry looks like I have jumped watch threads searching the issue).  The LT update wasn't something that had come up before and no idea why an easy run triggered that update on that particular day.  As the run was easy that LT showed something like pace 5.17 with a high bpm (few days post marathon).  At that time I was running my 5kms in 20/21 mins so 5.17 was quite slow.  Every time I ran fast it said every run was unproductive as the watch perceived those efforts to be very hard compared to the LT it had set.  I couldn't remove the LT screen or edit it.  Nor could support.    After many support calls they replaced the watch.  I had said it was the software/app that was the issue but they said replacing the watch meant they had tried everything.  The same issue continues on the replacement as the data carried over with my account.  In February of this year a new LT triggered after a run - again no reasoning why.  A much better pace/HR.  The watch perceives this as me being super fit so all my runs that do feel harder are recorded maintaining, productive or recovery as its perception is I am not stretching myself.  My vo2 used to be somewhere between 55 to 58 on average prior to all these issues.  It would bounce around depending on activity - maybe up 1 point after a good parkrun or down 2 after a long training run.  Now it is static at 60 and has been despite two marathons this year and lots of variation in my training even with four weeks off due to injury.  I am now running short and easy having done the London marathon a few weeks ago.  I have followed some suggestions for Garmin base runs and my weekly kms are much less but still the data has wildly fast predictions and no drop in my vo2 etc.  None of the data is reliable at all.   

jkny said:

The LT update wasn't something that had come up before and no idea why an easy run triggered that update on that particular day.

I personally don't like the auto-detection of LT. It has proven unreliable. Like you, during cycling though, I saw the LT update after sub-threshold efforts, so I don't trust it. I prefer the actual LT test, or a regular LT field test to get a more accurate value. I have confirmed the Garmin LT test by comparing it with several other devices and software, and it is pretty accurate. 

jkny said:

As the run was easy that LT showed something like pace 5.17 with a high bpm (few days post marathon)

The lactate threshold is probably detected through a combination of HR and HRV frequency-domain metrics. After a marathon, both of these metrics are probably off for a while, so it is a good assumption.

jkny said:

Every time I ran fast it said every run was unproductive

Yeah... Fond memories of the older training status. The issue there is that on prior models, the average load over the past days was taken into account. So, if you had a couple of hard workouts, you would be bumped in unproductive territory for days.

With Epix2, the acute load is taken into account, which imposes the workload of a workout to decay over time. This in addition to the HRV status allow a more accurate representation of the residual stress on the body, your recovery time, etc. So training status on the Epix2 is much better at that level.

jkny said:

as the watch perceived those efforts to be very hard compared to the LT it had set.

This is not the way it works. The training effect is estimated based on your HR/HRV/Pace when compared to your HR/Pace at your maximum ventilation (VO2Max). The VO2Max and its associates HR and pace is the cornerstone of the Garmin system. This is why it is important to get the best estimates possible by

(a) ensuring your HRMax value is correct, as well as your age and weight. Per Garmin/Firstbeat, a few bpm off for your HRMax will result in large increases in error for the VO2Max estimates,

https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbeat/uploads/2017/06/white_paper_VO2max_30.6.2017.pdf

(b) running actual VO2Max workouts within a balanced training load. Although the models are capable of predicting VO2Max based on walking and sub-optimal paces, nothing is better than feeding actual performance at maximum ventilation, assuming the physiological data from (a) is correct

jkny said:

My vo2 used to be somewhere between 55 to 58 on average prior to all these issues.  It would bounce around depending on activity - maybe up 1 point after a good parkrun or down 2 after a long training run.

Yes, the bouncing could be significant on older models, as it was on my older Edge 1030. Apparently, with Epix2, VO2 doesn't seem to bounce as much. I am assuming this is due to better HRV data integration. 

jkny said:

Now it is static at 60 and has been despite two marathons this year and lots of variation in my training even with four weeks off due to injury

t looks like you get a VO2Max number regularly. A plateauing of VO2Max is expected. VO2Max potential is at the highest around 20 years of age. Additionally, we lose 10% of VO2max per decade of age. VO2Max can increase a lot for untrained individual, up to their current potential. If you have been training for several years, you might be close to your full aerobic potential. Being in the top 1% of your age group might be about that :-) If true, you can still get better race performance by increasing your lactate threshold pace.

If you have been consistently training for Marathons, it is possible that your training lacks higher-intensity (threshold and VO2Max) trainings, and your VO2Max model doesn't get new information. This could explain why the VO2Max doesn't change. Also note that the VO2Max that you see on the watch is rounded, from a 2 decimal point estimate. So your VO2Max might change, but very slowly.

Since the VO2Max model is embedded in the watch, only a new firmware can yield to different results based on similar training and performance. Did you upgrade the firmware during that period? Maybe the model has been updated on some prior watch models...

LisbonRunner said:

I confirm my VO2Max AND Training status has not been updated since July despite the massive mileage for marathon of Berlin

Do you mean you don't see VO2Max values on your watch since July, or do you see VO2Max data points, but they all have the same value?

Etupes25 said:

I personally don't like the auto-detection of LT. It has proven unreliable. Like you, during cycling though, I saw the LT update after sub-threshold efforts, so I don't trust it. I prefer the actual LT test, or a regular LT field test to get a more accurate value. I have confirmed the Garmin LT test by comparing it with several other devices and software, and it is pretty accurate. 

I had been using the watch for over 12 months before that first LT came up and then it took another 10 months to trigger again.  I am not clear on why it did on those two occasions as both were nothing out of the ordinary.  

Etupes25 said:

If you have been consistently training for Marathons, it is possible that your training lacks higher-intensity (threshold and VO2Max) trainings, and your VO2Max model doesn't get new information. This could explain why the VO2Max doesn't change. Also note that the VO2Max that you see on the watch is rounded, from a 2 decimal point estimate. So your VO2Max might change, but very slowly.

I usually race a mix of distances from 5 km to 42 km although training has been less this year due to injury and other commitments even though I squeezed in two marathons. I understand this year would be more static with less speed work but thought vo2 would have dropped back a little and then plateaued.  Weight, height and max heart rate (as far as I know) are all up to date.

Etupes25 said:

Since the VO2Max model is embedded in the watch, only a new firmware can yield to different results based on similar training and performance. Did you upgrade the firmware during that period? Maybe the model has been updated on some prior watch models...

Not sure as it's been some time now since this all started but the watch software auto updates and at the time we did a lot of resetting with Garmin support and a factory reset I think.  While the fenix 6 was returned I went back to my old 645.  The same data carried over.  I'm not a software expert - I was leaving that to Garmin!  

Etupes25 said:

If you have been consistently training for Marathons, it is possible that your training lacks higher-intensity (threshold and VO2Max) trainings, and your VO2Max model doesn't get new information. This could explain why the VO2Max doesn't change.

Current load says optimal and productive but low aerobic shortage apparently.

jkny said:

we did a lot of resetting with Garmin support and a factory reset I think.  While the fenix 6 was returned I went back to my old 645.  The same data carried over

That could explain the historical "abrupt" changes in VO2...

jkny said:

Current load says optimal and productive but low aerobic shortage apparently

...but know this, I cannot rationalize the steady values of VO2 outside the hypothesis that the variations are so small that they are still rounded to the same value.

I am not saying there is no issue with Garmin systems. On the Epix2, the 4wk VO2 graph on the watch, under Training Status, shows whether the watch calculates a new VO2 or not. Mine is currently slowly creeping up from 51 towards 52, with small up and down at the first or second decimal point level...

You should contact Garmin Support and they would look at your account to see whether they have some syncing issues.

I think I have the same issue, I have been stuck on UNPRODUCTIVE for the last month, and it doesn’t  seem to matter what I do, short or long runs or hits, and also Vo2 Max is slipping even thought I have been getting generally quicker over the last few months.

1. Note: I have been using 935, 945, Fenix6 over the last 5 years ish and now Epix2, and up until recently the training status has been quite responsive and generally reflective of how I feel.

Robo884 said:

I have been stuck on UNPRODUCTIVE for the last month

How is your HRV status?

I am too stuck in Maintain status even though it was productive a month ago and I found this difficult to understand, BUT... I looked in my Fitness/Freshness chart in Strava and what I could see? A flat line... Despite doing 5-6 runs a week, all daily suggestions in my 10K preparation (base phase). My Vo2 is slowly climbing, but what this shows me is despite my previous expectations it is more or less correct. This is what could be expected with some kinds of training.