Eclipse support

I'm not a fan of the command palette to begin with.  I find the Connect IQ menu in Eclipse much easier to use.

dpawlyk said:

jim_m_58 said:

Why require an open file to do an export, for example.

The command palette context is determined from the type (extension) of the open file. "mc" files are particular to Monkey C projects. Other files in the project aren't.

Actually, at least in my tests, you can open a file of any type from the project you want to export. In the case of a multi-root workspace, the only reason you need to open a file is to change the "current project". In the case of a single-root workspace, you can export the project without having any files open.

IMO, it's better than Eclipse's heavyweight export wizard where you have to choose the project to export every time (the default is always the first open project, in alphabetical order *), and where a modal dialog prevents you from doing anything else until the export is completed. (The heavy use of modal dialogs in Eclipse, as opposed to their nearly complete absence in VS Code, is one example of how these IDEs belong to different generations.)

EDIT: (*) this is actually the default for the beginning of the session. To be fair, the export wizard remembers the last project you exported, for the current session.

It seems logical to me that "Export Project" would export the project you are currently working on, and that the project you are currently working on would be the project that contains the file you last opened/switched to.

jim_m_58 said:

I'm not a fan of the command palette to begin with.  I find the Connect IQ menu in Eclipse much easier to use.

That's a personal preference, but as discussed before, the advantage of the command palette is that you don't have to take one hand off the keyboard to use it, as opposed to the menu. (There's no keyboard shortcut for the Connect IQ menu. Sure you could open another menu with the keyboard and use the arrow keys to navigate to Connect IQ > Export, but that seems more time-consuming and awkward)

In general, with a command palette, you also don't have to memorize or navigate through multiple levels of deeply nested menus to find the command you are looking for.

Even Eclipse has the "quick actions" menu (CTRL-3), which is similar to the modern command palette, but with worse usability.

I think it says something that so many modern text editors, sites and IDEs have a command palette. e.g.

- VS Code

- Sublime Text

- Intellij

- Github

- Microsoft Office

- Windows Terminal

- Edge (experimental)

I know that popularity doesn't automatically make something good, but in general, I think people find it easier to search for something as opposed to memorizing where it is. And for the commands that they do want to memorize, there's always keyboard shortcuts. (You can create a keyboard shortcut for Monkey C: Export Project.)

And in general, devs prefer if they can keep both hands on the keyboard as much as possible, as it's much more efficient than constantly switching to the mouse or trackpad.

I will say that it would be nice if VS Code would allow the end user to customize the project (right-click) context menu -- that would be helpful for people who prefer to use the mouse.

VS Code actually reminds me of some IDEs from the 90's, but it might seem modern to some    What's old is new again!

I found an extension that adds a menu bar to VS Code - it allows you to define up to 10 user-defined buttons.

[https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=jerrygoyal.shortcut-menu-bar]

I determined the name of the "monkey C export project" command by searching for it in Keyboard Shortcuts:

Then I set the command in the extension settings:

Now I can export a monkey C project by pressing the "1" button:

I know it's not great, but it might be helpful if you have an action that you want to quickly access via mouse.

There's also a couple of extensions that are supposed to allow you to create your own menus in the command palette (which would be great in combination with the above extension), but I couldn't get them to work:

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=maruruh.vscode-quick-menu-builder

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=kylpo.vscode-menu-builder

If you could create your own custom menu and assign it to a custom toolbar menu, that would be almost as good as the Connect IQ menu in Eclipse.

On a side note, I'd say that Eclipse is to VS Code (and other modern editors) as this forum is to any other modern platform for posting messages (such as Reddit, NodeBB, Discourse, stackoverflow, Slack).

This forum forces you to use the mouse for so many things, and it's slow, buggy and unresponsive. All of the other platforms I mentioned at least have a way for you to opt-in to using the keyboard as much as possible.

Github is similar in that it supports markdown, a command palette, and various keyboard shortcuts. Note that it's obviously 100% focused on developers. The common theme is that devs don't want to use the mouse if they don't have to.

It really doesn't matter, as I've said I can't even use VS Code if I have the Nordic Dongle.  This has been an issue for many months.  If I want to try anything with VS Code, I crawl behind the PC and unplug the dongle.

jim_m_58 said:

VS Code actually reminds me of some IDEs from the 90's, but it might seem modern to some

jim_m_58 said:

What's old is new again!

I agree that some trends come and go in cycles, but I've been around long enough (and worked with lots of people with decades more experience *) to recognize that usability in dev-focused tools has improved by a lot. I just don't understand this attitude where it's assumed that things can never be improved. I don't know too many people who think Eclipse is the pinnacle of IDE software. I don't even think VS Code is the pinnacle of IDE software (for example, Intellij has more features, and Sublime Text is much faster, and can handle huge files that would bring VS Code to its knees).

(* This is relevant because I've seen how some refuse to grow and learn, even when it means doing things less efficiently or in an error-prone manner.)

I've worked with devs who refuse to upgrade their favorite IDE which was sunsetted in 1997. It's not free and you can't even easily buy it today. It was always very painful looking over their shoulder as they attempted to do things such as search for text, in an incredibly inefficient manner. These are devs who refused to upgrade to Eclipse when our company standardized on it. I'm sure they will use that IDE until they retire. Are they using it because that IDE is "better" or because they refuse to learn something new?

One example I gave of a trend that's almost objectively better than the past is moving away from modal dialogs. I don't know a lot of people who enjoy having a modal dialog block the rest of their work while they're exporting a CIQ project, for example. Same reason I hate the code editor in these forums. It's so slow to open and it prevents you from quickly editing something else. Just a pain to use in general, but especially if you have multiple code blocks to edit. For this reason (and others), I actually prefer using the inline code style.

Other trends which seem undoubtedly seem like positive developments: intellisense, code completion, code navigation, refactoring tools, etc. Sure you can memorize lots of stuff and do certain things manually, but it's not practical or desirable with the vast number of libraries that people use, even when they only work with a single language. Now imagine if someone has to switch between multiple languages (like Java, TypeScript, go, C#, etc.) on a daily basis. Not everyone has the luxury of working with a single technology (monkey c) on fun passion projects. I also mentioned this before, but I sometimes work with a custom language which has zero code navigation/completion tools, and I also work with langauges like Typescript which have full support in the IDE. I can do both, but I know which way I prefer.

Maybe it's just me, but I doubt that modal dialogs will come back as a trend. I even more strongly doubt that IDEs will drop intellisense, code completion, code navigation and refactoring tools because of "trends".

As far as consumer-oriented (non-dev) stuff goes, their UI has gotten a lot simpler, so usability has improved in one sense, but as soon as you want to do something that somewhat complicated, you run into a brick wall. There's def a huge difference in what "usability" means for dev tools as opposed to consumer apps, IMO.

On the flip side, I sometimes use a tool that's been around for a long time (Beyond Compare) because it has features that newer competitors simply don't. It's still popular enough that it's constantly updated. I also use more modern tools with the same purpose, when its convenient for me.

I also occasionally use Notepad++, which is fairly old, and whose UI hasn't changed, but it's way more efficient than Eclipse, so I still have a reason to use it.

So I don't just throw away old tools because they're old - I stop using tools like Eclipse because something better came along. If an old tool is still useful to me, I'll use it (even if other people look at the UI of Beyond Compare and instantly hate it because it's not modern.)

All I can say is that if you look at the numbers, many more people are using VS Code than Eclipse. As far as Java goes, I'm sure more people use Intellij (or other alternatives) than Eclipse. The UI of Eclipse never changes, and it never gets new features. That may be a plus for some people, but you can't argue with the numbers.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#overview

You can say 71% of developers are "wrong" to prefer VS Code (compared to the 16% of devs who use Eclipse), but in the end you want to go where your users are.

That's why VS Code has a ton of useful extensions which improve productivity that Eclipse doesn't have. Even if the usability of Eclipse was on par was VS Code (it isn't), I would still prefer VS Code due to the available extensions.

jim_m_58 said:

VS Code actually reminds me of some IDEs from the 90's, but it might seem modern to some 

jim_m_58 said:

What's old is new again!

I'd be really curious to see a 90s IDE that has the equivalent of the modern command palette, or even something worse, like Eclipse's Quick Actions menu. (Note that the usability of the quick actions menu is bad enough for me that I don't use it in Eclipse, although I have used it in the past when Eclipse was my daily driver at work.)

I know you don't like the command palette, but:

https://capiche.com/e/consumer-dev-tools-command-palette

There was an easier way all along: Keyboard shortcuts, where you’d press CMD or Ctrl+C to copy and so on.

They're faster, for sure. “Keyboard is by far the most efficient way to navigate and control modern digital technology 90% of the time,” said @Blakejmyer in a Capiche discussion about keyboard shortcuts. “Super users are keyboard only.” As engineer coach @MorganJLopes said, “The efficiency of navigating a computer without shifting hand position compounds over time.”

...

“If you don’t know a shortcut, how do you look it up? And if you don't know a feature exists, how do you find it?,” mused Superhuman founder Rahul Vohra in an email conversation about command palettes.

Enter the command palette.

Early text editors like Vim took the command line approach, with commands such as :wq to save your work and quit the program. They’re fast to use once you learn them—but you have to learn them in the first place.

Thus the genius of the command palette in Sublime Text—and its early predecessor in the Mac’s help menu search. You don’t have to learn what to press or even know what to look for. Just type and get the feature you need.

I find it hard to believe that the near-ubiquity of the command palette in modern dev-focused tools is a result of people mindlessly following trends. Yeah, there's def lots of trends that come and go in cycles in software development, but I don't think people are going to use the command palette if they don't like it. Same as how some people use vim on purpose (because they think it's more efficient), not because it's a trend. Note that vim is a *very* old tool, so again none of the objections based on "superficially liking things simply because they're new" applies here.

Speaking for myself, when an app or site like github has an optional command palette, I'll use it because it's more convenient, not because I'm forced to or because it's a trend.

jim_m_58 said:

VS Code actually reminds me of some IDEs from the 90's, but it might seem modern to some

jim_m_58 said:

What's old is new again!

Also, Sublime Text (and its command palette) has been around for 14 years. Not exactly "new".

I also find it ironic that you're criticizing VS Code for being like an IDE from the 90s. Even if this were true (I don't think it is), at the same you're claiming that Eclipse, an IDE from 2001, is better.

So you want something that's old, but not *too* old. Whereas many other people are happy to use newer tools (which provide real gains in UX/UI and features) as long as they provide the functionality that's needed.

EDIT: Like I said, VS Code isn't perfect. Sometimes I'll use Notepad++ or Sublime Text when I want to do certain things like open huge files that VS Code can't handle. For 95% of the non-Java stuff I want to do, it's great.

EDIT: If we applied the philosophy of "what I have is good enough" and "nothing ever needs to be improved" consistently, then 100% of people would be using vim. There's nothing wrong with using vim, but I'm sure most people would prefer to have other options as well.

I would say the same for VS Code: if Microsoft stopped improving it, then I'm sure eventually people would move on to another IDE.

EDIT: If you don't think VS Code (and similar IDEs) are "modern", what counts as "modern" to you? Let me guess: Eclipse (barely changed since 2001) and Visual Studio. I would prefer Visual Studio over Eclipse for sure; too bad Visual Studio is even more bloated than VS Code.