Base runs being recorded as Tempo

Are you systematically using a chest strap? How des the watch capture pace? With GPS? 

I’ve also noticed that after completing my run yesterday my race prediction times have gone up. 

Yes I use my chest strap regularly. I assume that my watch is capturing pace with GPS…

OK. So we can assume you don't have a data capture issue.

Based on your zones, your run was mostly in zone 3, so this is aligned with a tempo assessment (see notes below).

So it looks like the problem is in the target HR for a base run. Based on your LTHR zones, it should be a bit lower.

What happens if you run and keep your HR in zone 2? Do you get a base label?

All the targets of the Daily Suggested Workouts are based on a fixed % of VO2 Max. So there is a risk that your VO2 Max estimate is off and/or that the VO2/Pace relationship that the watch is maintaining is biased.

Notes:

A bit counterintuitively, the watch is in fact not using the HR or power zones to calculate the training effect. It calculates the TE based on the peak EPOC estimate during the workout, combined with your training frequency/history ("activity level").

For more info about EPOC see here:

https://assets.firstbeat.com/firstbeat/uploads/2015/10/white_paper_epoc.pdf

Because the watch is using peak EPOC, a Tempo assessment can happen when the criteria for other peak EPOC profiles ('base", "Threshold", "Anaerobic", ...) are not strictly met. Go a tad too fast in a base run for a while, and you get a tempo rating. Keep your HR a bit too high during rest periods in a threshold or anaerobic workout, and you get a tempo or VO2 Max rating.

Thank you for that feedback. I’m finding it very difficult to slow down even more but guess I can give it a try. The fact it is labeling a run as Tempo or Lactate TH (as was the case with the run I just completed - see below-  this morning which was meant to be a base run at 146bpm), will this mean  it is negatively impacting my training schedule/ race predictor? 

today I tried really diligently to keep my HR at 146bpm to achieve a ‘base run’. But it ended up saying ‘impacting lactate threshold even though average HR was 1bpm under. I even tried to find the flattest ground possible!?

• Ps. If my LTHR zones are off, what’s the best way of correcting this?
  
  

thank you for responding  

chris.clements said:

this morning which was meant to be a base run at 146bpm

How does 146bpm feel in terms of Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE)? In the end, we need to align the watch metrics with your RPE. Could you chat with somebody when you run at 146bpm?

Have you tried switching the targets of the suggestion to pace? Fundamentally, for long runs, it shouldn't matter. But it would be interesting to see if your RPE is the same based on an HR target vs a pace target, and that could point us to the root of the issue.

Also, how good do you think your threshold HR and pace are? How does the pace compare with your 10k performance if you have any PB at that distance?

Finally, and maybe most importantly, how confident are your in your HR Max? Disable HR Max auto-detection and, if your doctor lets you, perform a field or lab test. The HR Max value is the cornerstone for the majority of the Garmin training metrics. A TE that is too high can be a sign that your HR Max is too low, or can be due to a period of over training.

Microsoft Word - EPOC_based_training_effect_assesment_REVISED 2.doc (firstbeat.com)

chris.clements said:

Ps. If my LTHR zones are off, what’s the best way of correcting this?

First make sure the HR Max is accurate, disable HR Max auto detection. Then perform the bult in test. If you leave LT auto-detection on, do not accept a new value. Instead perform a new test. The built-in test uses a calibrated ramp method and it is the best way to set things up for the HR/HRV trends to be detected correctly, and getting the corresponding pace and power.

Ok thank you. I’ve disabled Max HR auto detect. I’ve searched around for how to perform the built in Max HR test but cannot find anything. Is this the same as the inbuilt lactate Threshold test.

I find 146bpm easy. Probably a tad higher (1-2bpm) to hold a decent conversation but only just . In the past I have run most of my runs at around 160 -170bpm, but I’m now looking to run at the 80/20 rule. 

I don’t like running to pace as I have a few inclines around where I live. I can give it a go though. When I first got my watch it was suggesting base runs at like 5.15/5.30 which I felt was crazy slow. 

my threshold HR is 4.41 @ 169bpm... I’m not sure how that matches up with my recent runs though.. FYI,I ran a half marathon in Germany in October where my average HR was 179 1hr 35min  (although I didn’t have my chest strap on)

chris.clements said:

I’ve searched around for how to perform the built in Max HR test but cannot find anything

Sorry, I meant the LT built in test. There is no built in test for HR Max. You can find some field tests online. They are hard tests to perform to the limit.

Another way to estimate your HR Max for running is to run a 5k going for your PB. Take the HR at the end of the run, add 5 bpm. That should be pretty close.

chris.clements said:

I find 146bpm easy. Probably a tad higher (1-2bpm) to hold a decent conversation but only just

OK. Let's put a pin on that.

chris.clements said:

I don’t like running to pace as I have a few inclines around where I live. I can give it a go though

If they are shortish and not very steep, it is not an issue. Ideally run on flat grounds on a regular basis so that the watch has an ideal HR/pace relationship modelled.

chris.clements said:

although I didn’t have my chest strap on

Yeah... hard to deduct anything here. The wrist HR can be alright, but it is prone to errors.

chris.clements said:

When I first got my watch it was suggesting base runs at like 5.15/5.30 which I felt was crazy slow. 

So then the target paces are easier than the HR targets? This could be a bias introduced by the hill running or some other issues with data capture.

Based on all the info you shared, I would guess that your HR Max and LTHR are a bit off, but not dramatically. With a LTHR at 169, it would be at 86%. This is normal for an average runner, a bit on the low side for a well trained long distance runner where I'd see more like 90%-92%.

So I would go first towards verifying the HR Max. When you train a lot, HR Max tends to decrease compared with a no-training status.