Native Power

danpinho said:

At this point I can assume that Garmin need a strap with and/or accelerometers to deliver P

Assume what you want but none of Garmin HR straps calculate or deliver power. They only provide data for something else to estimate power. If you’re estimating power from heart rate then you are on a hiding to nothing due to the well documented factors that adversely affect heart rate - hydration, heat, fatigue etc. That’s just one of the reasons why running power is next to useless.

AFAIK only one strap every purported to calculate power - https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/road-bikes/cycleops-powercal-review/. However, research showed it lacked validity and reliability - https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2017/01000/validity_and_reliability_of_the_powercal_device.25.aspx

That was for cycling as I’m sure will be pointed out. So into the journals for Stryd and we find this "Running power, calculated via the Stryd Power Meter, is not sufficiently accurate as a surrogate of metabolic demand, particularly in the elite population. However, in a recreational population, this training tool could be useful for feedback on several running dynamics known to influence running economy.” https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2018/08000/An_Assessment_of_Running_Power_as_a_Training.19.aspx which is supported in this conclusion - “We conclude that the Stryd power meter provides valid measures of GCT  (ground contact time) and LSS (leg spring stiffness) but underestimates the absolute values of PO (power output)” from here - https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/8/7/103

And Stryd is supposed to be the best. Garmin are wisely staying clear for the moment because there’s no benefit from incorporating a flawed metric natively in a running watch.

Dr Phil said:

There is no Garmin HRM-PRO PM. only Garmin HRM-PRO. The strap does not provide power information only heart rate data that is used to estimate running power.

Nitpick: while I agree that the HRM-PRO strap only provides information to *estimate* running power as opposed to calculating power itself, I'm pretty sure that information is not *heart rate data*, considering the fact that the Garmin RD Pod (which does not provide HR) is supposed to be sufficient for Garmin running power (in conjunction with elevation data from barometric altimeter.).

I think both of them are supposed to work in a similar way to the Stryd pod, in the sense that they provide various "running dynamics" data which are used to estimate power. (I realize that Stryd is supposed to be better for various reasons, but I think the principle is the same.) (EDIT: To be clear, the Stryd pod does provide power, but it's still being estimated from running dynamics and its own internal baro.)

According to Garmin's Running Power FAQ, heart rate is not part of the data that's used to determine running power. I assume that if you used an RD-Pod, did not wear a strap, and disabled optical HR, you would still be able to obtain running power from Garmin's app provided your watch has a baro altimeter (and is supported by the app).

https://support.garmin.com/en-CA/?faq=QRiQOEq5d09foNiH1DzUt5

You are correct and I stand corrected. I was sure I had read somewhere that heart rate was involved possibly because of the Powercal. However, it’s easy to see why running power is all but useless when you consider the number of assumptions that have to be made or the time relevance of some of the data.

Dr Phil said:

There is no Garmin HRM-PRO PM. only Garmin HRM-PRO. The strap does not provide power information only heart rate data that is used to estimate running power.

Philip - you are half right. The HRM-PRO (or the TRI, RUN, etc) does not provide a power figure.

But the power doesn't come from HR data, it comes from the Running Dynamics data (vertical oscillation, etc) from the strap, which is then processed on the watch to come up with a power estimate. 

The old Powercal strap did do a cycling power estimate from HR data, but I think this has been discontinued for some years.

Edit: I see these issues have been addressed. I should read the whole thread before responding. 

danpinho said:

Power estimation is way above what the running community adopted as Standard

Standard? So all the differences in the graphs are just because the indirect measurements are different and there's some standard existing how one should use the data to estimate/calculate power? Where one can read this standard you are talking about?

Power is great for intervals, hill reps, etc. The app, while better than nothing, is sorely lacking when it comes to displaying running power in a structured workout (or creating a power-based structured workout for that matter). Running power is relatively new, and not "voodoo" as some have claimed.

I train with a power meter on my bike, and I do understand the difference. Cycling power meters have been around since the late 80s, and have obviously come a long ways. Even the single sided power meters are estimating and have flaws, as does GPS calculations, internal altimeters and barometers and so on... Running power is in it's infancy (CIQ was only released in late 2017). You might find it next to useless, as I find relying on heart rate or pace for hill reps. That's completely fine. I would just like the option to train with native run power and I am glad to see more and more people share this.

Agreed. Garmin need to open this function up for running.

I've been running / training with a Stryd pod for a while now and I feel its a good basis for training. Is it better than pace or HR? I'm still not sure. All 3 aren't perfect.

It doesn't matter if the numbers vary from one device to another (be it Stryd, Polar / Coros wrist based or simulated like Power2Run app on the Apple Watch) - if we are consistent with our training, based on the same methodology and baseline numbers, it doesn't matter if your stated power numbers are 100w more or less than another watch, as long as you are using the right ones. Its like saying my Heartrate training is worse than yours as my MaxHR is lower or my FTP Pace is slower - My numbers, my metrics.

The Forerunner 945, Fenix 6 etc all have the built-in functions already to use power as a basis for training (I've tried using the cycling workout for running and it all works perfect - alerts, workout gauge etc etc) the issue is calorie, and intensity metrics are all off - its a shame we can't use them for running.

I use the Stryd App now, while not perfect its good enough

thetrickstergib said:

it doesn't matter if your stated power numbers are 100w more or less than another watch

C'mon, I can already see the forums posts that these Garmin numbers sucks! If we have seen those kind of post for example Fitness Age, so you think we won't see that for power?

https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-945/266706/improved-fitness-age