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VO2Max in Trail Running

(Note - I could've sworn we had a big discussion on the "coming" Vo2max in the Trail Running profile, but I can't find the thread now.  Maybe it was deleted?)

Anyway, there was much discussion in that thread about the "how" this would be done.  Well in DCRainmakers review of the coming Enduro watch, he has a long segment from FirstBeat's "HermanB" covering just that.  Thought those that participated in that phantom thread might be interested.  Here's the link and the segment quoted:

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2021/02/garmin-enduro-gps-watch-in-depth-review.html

'At the most basic level, the analysis used to calculate VO2max compares how fast you are running compared to how hard your body works to maintain that pace. Given that we are using heart rate as the key input to determine your effort, it’s important to understand that there are times when your current HR accurately reflects your current speed and there are times when it does not.

 

So, there has always been a lot of filtering and prioritizing happening in the background to sort out things like uphill/downhill, stops/starts, intervals and naturally occurring changes in intensity, etc… all in pursuit of identifying when relationship between and internal and external workloads reflects your fitness level (VO2max) and when it doesn’t. For all the obvious reasons, trail running adds a substantial layer of complexity to this problem. Changes in elevation have been incorporated into the analysis for many years now and that remains the case for trail running-based VO2max – but only to the degree to which it has been previously used.

 

The new element in the mix here is how accelerometer data is being used.  We are basically looking for and identifying patterns in how you are running to recognize when more energy than normal is being used to keep pace. In other words, it’s about attributing the fact that your body is working harder due to the ruggedness and changes of the trail instead of simply assuming you’re working harder than normal because of inadequate recovery or a drop in fitness. Without taking this perspective into account, your VO2 max would almost always be underestimated during trail runs. Getting a VO2max estimate from your trail runs is kind of neat but I think the ultimate value here is probably that it also means you are getting more data fed into things like Training Status. Perhaps it’s worth noting that there isn’t a separate “trail running VO2max analysis.” The developments that make estimating VO2 max during trail runs possible are baked into the normal VO2 max calculation, making the whole shebang more robust.

 

From a user perspective, there is a setting that still allows a user to disable Trail Run VO2max calculations in the Trail Run profile.  A big benefit of the Trail Run profile in the past is that users could effectively use it to “screen out” trail runs so they wouldn’t affect their VO2max, Training Status, etc.  If users still want to exercise caution with VO2max on trail runs (especially, say, if they are wearing a pack), they can use this setting to still “disqualify” a run from generating a VO2max so it doesn’t mess with their other features.”

  • Apart from new features, which are at Garmin's discretion (I think the trail is more suited to Fenix owners than us), I have noticed that they are releasing new SW versions on all Fenix 5, 5 plus and 6 versions correcting bugs like the accuracy of the altimeter and the navigation mode that we also have, and this doesn't seem right to me.

  • I would say trail running features are more than suited to the 945, being a runner's watch. Unless you believe that runners only use roads and athletics tracks Rofl

  • We have different opinions and of course I respect yours Thumbsup tone1

  • Thank you, I respect yours too. My view is just that for an activity type to be considered a Fenix-exclusive, it would have to be a little more niche or "extreme" than simply running on a trail, which I consider to be a pretty universal run activity and the staple of many a runner. To not feature trail run VO2 Max on a running watch and instead bring it only to the extreme sports/adventurer/doesn't-want-a-forerunner-because-plastic-watches-don't-look-good-in-the-office market, is really missing a lot of customers

  • On this I fully agree with you, but it seems that Garmin for some time has decided for series A (Fenix) and series B devices (everything else), even for the edges there have been no updates for months and now we are in full cycling season. , until 2020 there was not all this difference between the various products.

  • Yes, I think that the Fenix is used a lot to beta-test new firmware features, some of which find their way into more established lines like the Forerunner. So the Fenix has more updates, and the most useful of those (one would hope anyway) are eventually implemented in their pure running/triathlon device. I guess Fenix owners like to feel on the leading edge as far as new features are concerned, maybe because they're concerned with how their watch stacks up against the Apple Watch. Of course, not all features that are important to them are actually useful ones to have in a sports device.

  • I'm doing ultra trails and for that the Fenix is too bulky for me, it just feels a lot heavier on the wrist... and I think the Forerunner is Garmins top model in the Running/Multisport field... So I assumed naturally that the Forerunner would get the trail feature too... 

  • Woohhoo! This surprises me, due to what DC Ray has stated in the Enduro review, and doesn't suprise me, due to my other post regarding VO2Max. 

    I was already suspecting that, regarding Ray saying this feature was coming to 945.... it's a simple feature to add. Something they added to Gamin 6 in a breeze. So the fact that it didn't showed up in the same time window of the fenix 6 implementation... that had alerted me....

    So now it makes sense. As I said, this is an abandon turning point for 945. That maybe a sign that 955 is coming shortly and they have started to the process of dumping 945. It's a total artificial decision, a marketing decision, purely. But hey, it had to be done sometime.

    Hope I'm wrong, but for me this is evidence 2, and boy, THIS IS A MAJOR ONE. 

    So prepare your wallet if you want this lousy Trail VO2Max feature. Or prepare to ignore it. 

    Because 945 is still a fantastic piece of GPS watch, and totally desearving this bit of software. But Garmin does also have a reputation of ignoring customers requests, so it's ok. Deal with it! Or buy a new one.

    Sad, but true.

    • Is it enough for the 745? It was launching recent and I believe that Garmin cannot abandon it at this time considering a 3-year cycle.
  • Well, to be fair, Tech Reps are not always a good source. I once had one not knowing some basic features of the watch I was having problem with. So, just because that guy didn't know of any plans about VO2Max, doesn't mean they are not working on it.

    Inversely, just because someone at Garmin told DCR that they are gonna do it, doesn't mean it will happen either. I do not mean by that, that they lie to him or that he lies about what he's being told (both know better), but sometimes plans change.