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Instinct 2X for RowErg and SkiErg: questions

HornetMax
over 1 year ago

Hi all,

I'm pondering the purchase of an Instinct 2X. Only activities I do are on Concept2 RowErg and SkiErg and I log the sessions on Concept2 logbook (HR coming from a chest strap broadcasting via ANT, logging to c2 logbook done via smartphone and ErgZone or ErgData).

I'd like to use the I2X for physiological measurements, but I'm a bit lost on what I'll have/not have. My understanding (potentially wrong) and some questions:

  1. Training Load Training Effect: yes. Correct ?
    1. I'm not sure if I can log the data only on the c2 logbook and enable the forwarding of it to Garmin Connect (if I'm not wrong, this is supposed to work since march 2023) or if i will have to record the activity on the I2X at the same time (connecting it to the PM5 via ANT FE-C). Any idea ?
  2. Training Effect: yes. Correct ?
    1. Same question as 1.a: log via concept2 only or must log on I2X ?
  3. Training Readiness: yes. Correct ?
  4. Training Status: no. Because this requires VO2 estimation that is done only via running or cycling. Correct ?

Thanks in advance !

  • +1 over 1 year ago in reply to HornetMax
    HornetMax said:
    However in in Garmin Connect the HR graphs from the HR widget/glance show very different data

    The watch uses the HRM only when recording an activity, otherwise it uses the internal optical sensor even if the HRM is paired and used. There are two ways around it:

    1. Start an activity on the watch in the same time, even if you do not plan to save it. The strap will be used for the all-day HR data in such case. With some 3rd party apps (i.e.Zwift) there is a risk of double-counting the Training Load, in some setups, when double recording. I do not know whether it is the case with Concept2.

    2. Use the HRM-Pro strap connected to the Garmin Connect app, and remove the watch from the wrist, or disable the internal HR sensor - in such case the all-day HR data comes directly from the strap.
    HornetMax said:
    I though VO2max estimation was only available if running and/or cycling

    There are more options (see the link below, especially the section "How Is VO2 Max Calculated on My Garmin Device?"), but the values coming from anything else than Running or Cycling with powermeter are not very reliable. I'd take them with a grain of salt.

    What Is VO2 Max Estimate and How Does It Work? | Garmin Customer Support

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to trux

    ... I should also mention that even if you use one of the two suggested ways to record the all-day HR with the strap, it will still differ from the data shown in the activity. The curve will be smoothed, because the all-day graph shows 2 minutes averages (unlike the activity HR with up to 1s sampling rate), hence any short peaks or dips will be removed.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to trux

    Thanks for the answer. I've indeed tried to play with power modes & similar but it seems you're right: when I connect the ext HRM with the watch off my wrist, after a few seconds the HR appears on the watch face but a few seconds after it disappears (--) and the watch goes back to the internal HR sensor. Too bad there's no way to "force" the ext HRM, seems something that may be interesting in some situations.

    I'll try via logging an activity (without saving it) but yeah, bit of a hassle (plus need to see if double counting kicks in, as you said).

    2min averages vs 1s sampling rate: that's understandable, no big problem. But while I was rowing a 19min session, the optical sensor recorded something relatively flat at 90bpm with a slight increase at the end of the session to 106bpm, while the chest strap said I started at 102bpm and progressively increased to a final 184bpm ... (which are numbers I would expect for a 5K time trial full steam).

    VO2Max: I guess it went for "VO2 Max Estimates From All-Day Heart Rate" but yeah, given the results, it's probably better to have this switched off. it's not a grain of salt, it an entire giant mine of salt that is needed :)

    Thanks again for the answer !!

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to HornetMax
    HornetMax said:
    plus need to see if double counting kicks in, as you said

    If you do not save it, then I think this metrics will be ok. It is especially the Training Load and Training Effect that could be double counted, if they are being transmitted from Concept2 too. But I am not certain about it - there are different factors playing the role. I think the double counting is a problem only when double-recording on two Garmin devices, where each of them works with a different version of the Physio TrueUp feature. And that is not your case, so I think you will be fine.

    However, you can start a different type of activity, such as for example cardio. Or preferably Driving or Inline Cycling, because otherwise the pulls will be counted as steps. Which basically is not a big problem, but some people prefer having "clean" stats. At activities like cycling, driving, and some others, the steps counting is suppressed. At rowing possibly too.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to HornetMax
    HornetMax said:
    he optical sensor recorded something relatively flat at 90bpm

    The optical sensor easily locks on the cadence, as the arterial pressure changes with the pulls.  spoke about it too, and wrote that you can bring the watch to catch up on the true HR by tapping on it. Adjusting the fit and position a bit further from the wrist can also sometimes help. However, the optical sensor will never be as accurate as the strap.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to trux

    I think I've read somewhere (maybe even here) that even if an activity is logged but not saved, it will count is (some?) stats/metrics. That would be even more annoying.I'll give it a try making a copy of another activity as suggested (maybe just Other/Other should work too ?).

    BTW yes, Training Load and Training Effect are updated by concept2 forwarded data.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to HornetMax
    HornetMax said:
    if an activity is logged but not saved, it will count is (some?) stats/metrics

    That's what I am writing above - AFAIK, it is a problem only at dual recording on two Garmin devices simultaneously, and additionally only if each of them has a different version of the Physio TrueUp feature. However, you better make a short test first to see how it behaves in your setup. I am not at all sure how data from Concept2 mix in.

    HornetMax said:
    'll give it a try making a copy of another activity

    No need to make a copy. If you do not save the activity, you can pick what you want. However, only selected activity profiles will suppress the steps counting, so if you do not want to get false steps counts from the rowing, then choose for example driving, or indoor cycling. However, I would test first the Indoor Rowing, and see how it behaves. If there is no double counting, then it would be the best one to use, of course.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to trux

    FWIW, I have found optical pretty accurate after: 1. You warm up. Get the HR somewhere over 100. 2. Pause and wait until it "finds it". Once it has locked on to the elevated HR I've found it good to go. You may lose it if you are doing intervals or something when it goes way up and down. Haven't tested it into the 180 BPM range. Can't hit that any more! Relaxed

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to AnonJohn

    Seems to work ok for SkiErg (and doing squats) but on the RowErg it's way off the mark. Not a problem as I was aware and I have a chest strap, it would be just nice to be able to tell the 2X to use the ext HRM (even outside an activity).

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to HornetMax
    HornetMax said:
    it would be just nice to be able to tell the 2X to use the ext HRM

    I agree and recommend submitting the request through the official form at Share Ideas | Garmin. If there are numerous similar requests, it has a chance to pass through to the developers.

    On the other hand Garmin HRM-Pro allows it (if you remove the watch from the wrist or stop the HR sensor), so Garmin may be hesitant offering the same advantage to older and to 3rd party straps.