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Tweaking DSW Pace / Running.

Finnzose
6 months ago

I have been using DSW for a while in running activities, on several generations of Fenix / Epix watches. Now I am on F8 AMOLED 51mm, with FW 12.35.

Since a few weeks, the paces of the DSW have changed and are much harder to reach. A Tempo exercise is now a VO2max, I strugle to keep the paces. So I'd like to tweak the pace a bit. How would I achieve that ?

I have tried to change the LTHR on the watch, but that doesn't change (at least without syncing to the phone) the DSW Paces (at least immediately). Nor does changing Max HR. Any other ideas ?

Or are they calculated on the phone, and then transferred to the watch ?

Both of those are set manually (Max HR and LTHR - I tried to change both the general values, and/or the running specific), so I know they have not changed automatically. I don't know why, now the DSW are so much harder, when for years they have been pretty much spot on.

Since I think this is a very useful feature, that I use almost every day, I would like to get it back into "reasonable" paces.

Any ideas ?

Thanks !

  • 0 6 months ago

    From what I've read, it seems that the DSW paces do not update immediately when you change the MaxHR or LTHR, it updates overnight.

    So I've changed MaxHR (from 183 to 180). Let's see if the pace is updated tomorrow...

  • 0 5 months ago

    I give up !

    I cannot find a way to make the DSW workouts useful anymore. The "new" algorithms suggests a pace that is too fast for me. A Tempo ends up being a VO2max. Ugh !

    I have to go back to making workouts by hand like a cave man.

    It really annoys me that a feature that I have enjoyed for years is all of a sudden useless. PLEASE GARMIN, make it possible to tweak the suggested paces somehow, in case the "Garmin Intelligence" mucks it up.

  • 0 5 months ago in reply to Finnzose

    Are you using HR-based or Pace-based DSW?

  • 0 5 months ago in reply to trux

    Pace-based. I find that HR takes too long to stabilize, so on sprints, it is hard to judge how fast to go. I find pace is (was) more easy to execute.

  • 0 5 months ago in reply to trux

    ... also - is your VO₂max and LTHR established correctly? Dou you use a HRM chest strap? The DSW will only use the auto-detected LTHR. The manually set LTHR won't have any impact. See more details at Using the Daily Suggested Workout Feature on a Garmin Watch | Garmin Customer Support 

  • 0 5 months ago in reply to trux

    They were established correctly, since DSW worked for a long time. Now the algorithm has changed, so perhaps I need to "recalibrate" them somehow.
    I use a Verity Sense OHR sensor on the biceps, usually. I also have an H9 HR-strap. Perhaps I should run a few times with it, to see if it changes anything...

  • 0 5 months ago in reply to Finnzose

    The target pace is determined from the pace/VO2/HR+HRV relationship models that the watch optimizes for you based on your performance. Each type of workout target is based on % of VO2 Max, then pace or HR is derived from the models.

    There is not much you can do as a user to influences the models:

    - ensure that your Max HR is correct,

    - double check that the auto-detected LTHR is making sense: could you run 30mn at this HR and have no gas left in the tank?

    - wear a chest strap, make sure to wet it before your runs and monitor your HR during the first 10mn of your run to make sure there are no unwanted anomalies.

    - run a balanced training program to avoid a bias in the models

    If the pace is off compared with expected benefit/RPE, you have a couple of options:

    - stay the course and run your best effort to match the target pace, keeping a steady pace. After a while the model will readjust to your recent "performance". I recommend to replace the target pace with the maximum steady pace you can sustain for the target duration and reps, from time to time. Otherwise, regardless of the target pace, use a pace where you can keep it steady and you could a couple of more reps. For easy run, run at conversational pace, not faster.

    - you could also reset the watch to factory settings, but not restore a backup and not connect it to your account for a couple of weeks. Just use the watch itself to do your runs/ride, and see if the newly build models work better.

  • 0 5 months ago in reply to Etupes25

    Thanks for all these tips! I will try them, and see what happens. I will report back in a couple of weeks to see if something has improved.

  • 0 3 months ago in reply to Finnzose

    I have the epix pro gen2 and I have reported this to Garmin support, I think it's a bug in the new algorithms implementation, I'm experiencing the same, changing threshold, maxHR, threshold power, but the DSW is giving wrong values no matter what metrics I modify, looks like DSW is getting the threshold metrics from another place than the user profile

  • 0 3 months ago in reply to Lewis

    I think one way to fix it would be to have the option of setting the LT-pace, in addition to the LT-HR. But you can't do that. Sothe only way is to hope that the algorithm gets it right.  If it doesn't DSW simply doesn't work.

    After trying to do thing to fix the results (run with a chest strap, a mix of different workouts at different paces and HR ranges...), I have given up. The DSW paces (specifically for tempo workouts) are simply too fast for me. I always end up with a VO2max workout, with a HR that is way too high.

    I have gone back to the dark ages, and when the DSW suggests a tempo run, I create one (by hand) that is similar to what Garmin suggests, but with an easier pace. That works, but it shouldn't be like that.