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Garmin Training Plan a joke? Pro Athlete?

rbmx
over 2 years ago

Always customized my training alone or according to coach.Just for qurreacity I tried Garmin training plan for 2weeks. Not ever once did I get Sprint or Anaerob training. All sessions for two weeks was done 100% according to plan (a little bit faster as well).
When in good shape you wil not get high HR at 15sek sprint or 1min Anaerob, even tough speed will say so.. Pretty sad that Garmin uses only HR to detect this, should have used Tempo/Speed. Garmin gives me “base” on this workoutsThinking (Max HR, threshold etc 100% tested in lab several times)

Any Pro Athletes here?

do you guys use standard Garmin Heart Rate zones or customized according to LAB etc?

maybe better to leave it as std Garmin to make algorithms etc work according to Garmin stats?

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  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    Do you split and save your workouts into "Warm up", Main Part", "Cool Down" and will this make any different on the Aerobic/Anerobic calculations?

    I have always put everything into "one File" and usually i do 15-20min Warm up + 15-20min Cool Down and this will of course make the AvgHR low.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to rbmx
    rbmx said:
    Do you split and save your workouts into "Warm up", Main Part", "Cool Down" and will this make any different on the Aerobic/Anerobic calculations

    No, I don't think it will. I think the way it works is that total time in VO2 max zones is what matters.

    When you design a workout, you essentially target a total time in zone. For super-threshold workouts, you would want to cut the time up in intervals to avoid the lactate build to limit your performance, essentially.

    For example some coaches recommend to spend at least 30mn in the Threshold zone to have a meaningful workout, and you can cut this into pieces. Typically for Thresholds and VO2 Max workouts, you'd want around 4 to 5mn of rest. For VO2 workouts, some coaches recommend a 1:1 ratio between work and rest intervals. When you go higher to anaerobic, you want longer intervals to eliminate the lactate and bring the HR down. You see different ratios there, mostly 1:3 and more.

    So you can use your FTP zones to determine your pace for the different workouts, you build your custom workouts and you repeat the intervals until you cannot any longer. If that doesn't do it, your FTP is off Sweat

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    I have usually never more than 2min rest even if the intervals are 400m sprints or 10m at Threshold so could this have something to do? 
    nb: the workout you sent screenshot, is it cycling?

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to rbmx
    rbmx said:
    2min rest even if the intervals are 400m sprints

    If running at full speed the 400m, the 2mn looks right.

    rbmx said:
    10m at Threshold

    You could try short rest periods here and see if this detracts your following interval, but nothing concerning

    Remember that the total time in the target zone across all intervals is what matters. Longer rest periods are not bad, they will lower HR, and then it will take some more time to get it back up, so the intervals might have to be longer because of this to maximize your time in zone.

    Because the watch is first relying on HR, then on pace/power for high intensity intervals, I suspect that you have to get the HR in the "hidden" VO2 Max zone corresponding to your training objective (eg 100% for VO2 Max workouts), before pace/power is kicking in. I am not 100% sure of that, but I have noticed that if your HR doesn't get high enough, meeting your pace/power is not enough to qualify. It doesn't detract from the training though, it is just that the watch might not give you credit.

    And we know that if the watch doesn't give you credit, it doesn't count, right? Wink

    rbmx said:
    the workout you sent screenshot, is it cycling

    Yes, but the design is the same for running, in particular if you use % of FTP power as your base.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    Thanks again for great answer. I really appreciate alle the good answers. Not only have you given me good answers, but also the great articles to read and gotten my training smarter;)... 

    Etupes25 said:
    And we know that if the watch doesn't give you credit, it doesn't count, right?

    Yes you are right, hehe;)... , but nice to get the watch as accurate as possible, even tough using TP and WKO;)

    It looks like i get all my Cycling workouts spot on and Aerobic;Anaerobic, sprints etc all good, but that's because using Power meter and FTP 100%.

    Earlier this year my EDGE 830 did not have the Stamina etc and not in sync with my F7X and Physio True up not 100%, but that will probably come with an Software upgrade soon)

    So just to be clear: My Treadmill workouts will never be 100% regarding Garmin stats because "done inside", even tough i am using stryd Foot pod?

    Had i done my Running Workouts outside Garmin would have used Speed as well as HR, but done inside uses only HR (and VO2max is"off") and then i would get Sprints etc?

  • +1 over 2 years ago in reply to rbmx
    rbmx said:
    So just to be clear: My Treadmill workouts will never be 100% regarding Garmin stats because "done inside", even tough i am using stryd Foot pod?

    It is a bit more complex

    - running only inside won't update your VO2 max model

    - the workout targets are based on the VO2 max model

    - running lower intensity outside may give you a biased VO2 max model, resulting in non-optimal targets. It is hard to predict in which direction the bias will occur, and whether it is uniform across all target types, because the model is statistical-, AI-based and, frankly, public documentation is very limited

    - when you execute a workout inside, you will get training effect, based on HR and effort, but it will be biased

    - for higher intensity workouts, inside or outside, you need to get your HR high enough and long enough in addition to maintaining pace high enough (again pace and HR "targets" might be biased  to begin with).

    - inside or outside, Sprint workouts might not give you credit for the full anaerobic effort because the intervals are particularly short

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    Hi again..

    Så after a "great" Cycling season where i think all my Garmin stats/Training status etc was on point it was very fun to follow that feeling, workouts and Garmin where all in sync;)

    The stats, Load etc are now not in sync and Load has decreased from total 1300-1500 to 800-1000 even tough i am training the same amount of hours and now even more Intense workouts (Because of a lot running Intervalls), but this is probably off due to running inside.

    BUT, i have also for the first time using the Fenix 7x with the updated stats began my Cross country skiing and Garmin will give me very, very low load for my workouts.

    Is this because it is XC ski profile?

    Ex i did today a 3hour easy ski with avg HR 65% of my Max (2.30hours in sone 1 + 30min in sone 2), and Garmin Gave me Load of total only 54

    Earlier this week i did a easy 1hour Run (Outside) and pretty similar avg HR 67% of my Max (50min in sone 1 + 10min in sone 2), Load 85

    Also what is your thoughts on Zone 2 training? 

    I usually do all mye easy Long Runs and Ski with avg Zone 1, but i see that Garmin will give much higher Load when HR is in Zone 2 mostly

    (i have always thought that Zone 2 is an "avoid" zone when training so many Hours)

    Thx again

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to rbmx
    rbmx said:
    Is this because it is XC ski profile?

    I don't know much about this. I found that the watch supports XC ski power with the HRM-Pro chest strap. https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=oHbDqNJFHN2Uqyj6NS99l5

    That would be a great way to train: do a XC ski FTP test and base your HR zones on the LT, rather than HR Max.

    rbmx said:
    (i have always thought that Zone 2 is an "avoid" zone when training so many Hours

    There is nothing wrong with zone 2, and with any other zone. It all depends on your training objectives. If you want to train for long endurance races, you want your thresholds to be as close as possible to your VO2 max. Untrained athletes might have VT1 at 60% of VO2 max, while well trained athletes might be at 85%: huge pace/speed difference, same physiological cost.

    Some coaches say that anything below zone 2 is "wasted miles". Some say that you get most of the benefits of zone 2 training by training in the higher part of zone 1, below the first ventilatory threshold, aka aerobic threshold, with a fraction of the physiological cost. I read similar thoughts about zone 3 as a zone to avoid, or as a zone to work on between tempo vs sweat spot training. You see so many training philosophies out there...

    In my opinion, what separates zone 1 vs zone 2 is precisely the aerobic threshold. This is where your anaerobic system becomes solicited to complement the aerobic effort, respiration starts increases and lactate starts builds progressively. In that framework, zone 1 is easy, zone is "endurance". In Zone 1, you can go for hours and hours: it is a steady state zone. Zone 2 is not a steady state zone: after a couple of hours you will see the HR drift up, and you might end up in Zone 3 and above.

    www.polar.com/.../

    FYI, the second ventilatory threshold is the anaerobic threshold and is close to the lactate threshold, although they are different things

    https://scientifictriathlon.com/tts71/

    Sooo, assuming you are close to maxing out your VO2 max for your age, your training should focus on zone1/zone2, sweetspot/threshold, and intensive/extensive anaerobic functional reserve. Each is about make the best use of the VO2 max capacity in different race scenarios (respectively long endurance, short endurance, and sprints)

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    Hi again. Just curious: could you tell me the "set up" one the workouts above?

    Rest and work periods etc?

    To get Anaerobic do the rest time need to be long?

    I usually only need 1-2min rest and maybe to little.

    Ex today i did 3-2-1min x5 (indoor running MAX efforts) and it was by far a Vo2max/Anerobic session, but Garmin gave me Threshold.

    (I only had 1min rest between each intervall)

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to rbmx
    rbmx said:
    could you tell me the "set up" one the workouts above?

    I am using WKO5 Individualized Multisports training zones. As the name indicates, the targets, duration, repetition and rest time are all individualized based on my running and biking power-duration curve.

    Since you seem to be a well-trained athlete, you could benefit from a similar approach. There could be significant differences between 2 different athtletes

    Check out the following link for an introduction

    https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/dc479d29/files/uploaded/Introduction_to_Optimized_Intervals.pdf

    Also check out this video that explains the potential differences for 2 different athletes. You can start from the beginning or go to the ~52mn marker

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_c_e-t9U7o

    Anyway here are the workouts I did at that time and I shared earlier in this thread

    Anaerobic: 6 times 1:45 @ 145% of FTP, 6mn rest. Per Dr Coggan's ilevels, you can vary your target between 1:11 @ 149% and 0:22 @ 215%, 1:2 to 1:10 interval:rest ratio

    VO2 Max; 3 times 10:00 @ 110% FTP , 5mn rest. iLevels to try: 13:00 @ 105% to 1:11 @ 149%

    Threshold: 1 time 41:00 @ 100% FTP. iLevels to try:  13:00 @ 95% to 45:00 @ 105%

    rbmx said:
    t was by far a Vo2max/Anerobic session, but Garmin gave me Threshold

    After our discussion, I dug into the training effect calculations using publicly available information. You can check out the following link for a digest, and go to page 5 and 6.

    https://forums.garmin.com/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/fenix-6-series/316785/alway-anaerobic-shortage

    Based on published white paper, TE calculation uses the notion of activity class to convert EPOC into TE.There is an activity class setting on your Garmin Account settings > User Profile. You will find there your VO2 max numbers as well. Garmin indicates that newer watches don't use that activity class per se: It is possible however that the value is calculated and updated like the VO2 Max values, so it is worth checking that it is consistent with your training history, just in case.