Related
Options

Garmin Suggested Workouts approach for multiple races

TheSalamander
over 2 years ago

Hoping someone may have some experience on how best to approach Garmin Suggested Workouts on the Epix 2 with 9.xx firmware. 

Quick background is that I started running in 2018, and focused on 5k distances. I started Parkrun in 2019 and competed 5 times with a personal best time of 19:08 minutes.  With the pandemic happening Parkrun went on a pause. In March 2021 I broke my leg skiing (picture lower down for those interested). I restarted running in late March 2022 and had my first Parkrun (post leg break) last Saturday (July 23rd 2022). I managed a 20:14 which I was happy with.

My initial goal is to get sub 20:00, which I feel I should achieve in August or September, and then to stretch to a sub 19:00 before November. I am aiming to do a Parkrun every 2 weeks with my next one on August 6th.

I've currently set up the August 6th Parkrun as a Primary race event on my Garmin with a target time of 19:50 and am following the Epix 2 watch based suggested workouts.

Following the August 6th race is it better to:

a) Set the next Parkrun race as the primary event in 2 weeks time, and reduce 5-10 seconds from the target time. And then as I complete each race set the next race up again with another 5-10 seconds reduced from the target time.

b) Set up all the Parkruns with 5-10 second quicker target time, and set the one that is due soonest as the Primary Race

c) Just set a Parkrun race for 26th November as the primary event with a Target time of 17:50, and follow the suggested workouts other than each second Saturday ignore the suggestion and just race the Parkrun as fast as I can.

d) some other permutation

i.e. really the question is whether it is better to set the interim goals/races or to set the 'final' race when following the Garmin Epix 2 Suggested Workouts (i.e. the ones on the watch)

Thoughts?

Alex

And here is my leg...

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    I don't think the algorithm will help you. If I were you, I would input all race days, set the one you want to achieve your PB as the primary and decrease target times over the timeline.

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    If I understand correctly you want to shave at least 1mn11s from your current 5k time which is already pretty good (close to 20mn). Without knowing anything else about your age and fitness level, this is an ambitious but apparently realistic objective since you have achieved a PB of 19:08, although your injury recovery might be in the way. 

    It is possible that Garmin's automatic training program will be good enough, I don't know. If I were you, I would use a (virtual coach) training platform, etc. At least you could get some assistance to confirm your objectives and help you maximize your training, and best fit your secondary races along the way. For example, I don't know whether running a 5k every 2 weeks is going to be the optimal solution to get there since it can take several days to recover from a race, and the last thing you want is to get some other injury from overtraining for example.

    At any rate, since you have about 7 Parkruns before November, you could choose one in early September as your primary race with a goal around 19mn and 20s. Once you have completed the race and reached that goal, you would enter your target race as your primary race and you would still have about 8 weeks to shave off close to half a minute, which is a lot of work. My rational is splitting the goal in half will get you some idea of your progress along the way.

    My other advice would be to run the bi-weekly secondary 5ks to replace some specific workout in the program. For example VO2 intervals or, ideally, threshold workouts.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    Thanks for the response and suggestions. I've added the races and updated the primary race to try your suggestion of having one in September to see what happens over the next few weeks. I'll take a look at some of the other training platforms.

    thanks

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to TheSalamander

    I am curious to see how the race plan is working out for you. Would you share any update?

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    2 months later, knowing what you know now about the race calendar etc, what do you think is the best way to set this up.

    I.e. with the benefit of some hindsight, how would you answer your own question?

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    October 26th and my thoughts on how things have gone and whether I hit my goal. I ended up setting up the Garmin Suggested Workouts to break my 2022 running season into 2.

    • I started running March 28th, 2022 following the end of the ski season
    • I was planning to repeat the same 5k Parkrun course on the following dates:
      • July 23rd - target 19:55; actual 20:14; 186 spm; 1.34 m stride - Saucony Endorphin Speed 2 (hot and humid)
      • August 6th - target 19:50; actual 20:02; 188 spm; 1.34 m stride - Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 (hot and humid)
      • August 13th - target 19:40; actual 19:59; 182 spm; 1.39 m stride - Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 (hot and humid)
      • August 27th - target 19:30; actual 20:08; 182 spm; 1.37 m stride - Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 (very hot and humid)
      • September 24th - target 19:20; actual 19:45; 186 spm; 1.37 m stride - Adidas Takumi Sen 8
      • October 15th - target 19:10; actual 19:49; 183 spm; 1.39 m stride - Adidas Takumi Sen 8
      • October 29th - target 19:00; actual 19:08; 185 spm; 1.43 m stride -  - Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 (actual 5km split time was 18:58 mins)
      • November 12th - target 18:50; actual tbc
    • Note: I did make a couple of slight changes in the August dates based on weather, other schedule conflicts etc, so the dates above are the final dates I actually raced (other than Nov 12th which hasn't happened yet)
    • Each race had a target time reduction of about 10 seconds, starting at 19:55 to get me to 18:50 minutes on November 12th. Note: the actual race distance is 5.03/5.04km.
    • I started using Garmin Suggested Workout late July and based on the suggestion in this thread set a early September race date as the primary race (this date ended up moving), and the race dates prior to that as secondary races
    • Once I reached the original primary race date in September I then set November 12th as the new primary race, with the race dates prior to that as secondary races.
    • I set Garmin Suggested Workout to use Pace rather than Heart Rate
    • I kept to 95%+ of the runs that were suggested during the 3 months, including keeping within the pace target, duration and frequency
    • As time went by I began to target being at the faster end of the target pace range rather than the middle
    • I wore headphones that audibly told me my current pace each minute

    I found that the Suggested Workouts focused a lot on building base i.e. fairly slow pace compared to what I am used to running at. At first I found this boring/frustrating but I began to use this sessions to focus on technique e.g. mid-foot strike, focusing on pulling the knee up and forward quicker, etc.

    The Schedule did a good job of working around the secondary and primary races I had entered.

    Weather played a fairly significant factor in the race times, i.e. July/August races were all very hot and humid (22-25 degrees C), vs September/October where it was dry and chilly (6-12 degrees C). This definitely had a negative impact on my race times

    I decided to try the Adidas Takumi Sen 8 for 2 races which was a mistake. I found them to not suit my running style as much as the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3s and it also adds an extra variable into the race times. Without going off on a tangent I found the Takumi Sen 8s just took more effort to sustain a sub 4:00/km pace compared to the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3s.

    Most weeks saw me running between 50-60 km with at least one sprint/interval/tempo session.

    One of the few times I deviated from the suggested run was a 1hr 20min run on October 21st that was meant to be run at 5:50/km. I kept to the duration but instead ran km repeat intervals switching between 5:30/km (within the range) and 4:30/km (faster than the range) with the final 2km at <4:00/km.

    So my summary, observations and thoughts:

    • Today I did run 5.00 km in 18:58 mins - so I achieved my sub 19:00 minute goal!
    • Today the Parkrun actual time was 19:08 mins for 5.04 km distance
    • If I could go back in time I would make the following 2 main changes:
      • I would set the race schedule to be one schedule with Nov 12th as the primary race and all the other races as secondary
      • I would keep to the same Saucony Endorphin Pro 3 shoes rather than try the Takumi Sen 8s
    • During the 3 months there were some Epix 2 firmware updates that messed up/reset the Garmin Suggested Workout phase, although the impact was probably fairly minor
    • I do believe Garmin Suggested Workouts are viable approaches for training for the casual/competitive runner who doesn't do formal track races, depending on your situation. I liked it as if I had a bad nights sleep or something else happen then the Suggested Workout when I woke up in the morning had adjusted to take the situation into account. They clearly won't be as good as a dedicated in person coach that works closely with you.
    • It definitely focuses on building Base which some runners may not like - but based on my research is probably the right strategy.
    • The reason I was able to reduce my race time from Oct 15th to Oct 29th by about 30 seconds was in part down to switching back to the Saucony Endorphin Pro 3s, but more around the prior few weeks I had focused on running technique, lengthening my stride without overstriding and being more focused on quickly raising my rear leg knee forward and up as it swung through. This shows in my stats with my stride being a few cms longer.
      • For reference my prior best 2019 5k run had a cadence of 175 spm and a stride length of 1.41 meters so I have been able to increase my cadence through intentionally focusing on it.

    I think the biggest limitation of the Garmin Suggested Workouts currently is that it doesn't coach you on improving your form. It is just about running and building up cardio strength etc. By this I mean it is not looking at the various Running Dynamics metrics e.g. Ground Contact Time, Cadence, Stride Length and coming up with drills to improve these. I wouldn't be surprised to see this begin to be added as time goes by since the data is there and Garmin should have a big enough data set to begin to provide suggestions based on this.

    I am fortunate that I am inquisitive enough to spend time researching on improving running form e.g. by increasing cadence, by increasing stride length without overstriding, by focusing on front knee drive, rear foot push, hips and glutes etc and then experimenting and looking at the resulting data after a run. 

    I would credit Garmin Suggested Workouts as being key to improving my cardio strength and fitness without overstressing my legs/muscles etc. Without Garmin Suggested Workouts I would likely have done far more of my runs at a faster pace and had injuries and greater levels of discomfort.

    I would credit my own research in running form and implementing the recommendations as really being the key to increasing my actual pace.

    thanks

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Etupes25

    I wanted to get closer to the end of my race schedule before posting, but have now responded below. Thank you for your suggestions it definitely helped.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to Ken

    See below. The main change would be to not split the race season into 2 parts. Other than that following the Garmin Suggested Workouts will definitely build cardio fitness/strength, but it won't necessarily improve running technique. For that you need to either do your own research or have another more experienced runner/coach help.

    I was lucky enough to have my wife video me running a few times, and then take those videos and combine what I saw with what I was researching on various running channels/forums to work on my technique.

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to TheSalamander
    TheSalamander said:
    so I achieved my sub 19:00 minute goal!

    Congratulations! When I saw the X-ray of your broken leg, I was impressed by your perseverance, but now even more by your results!

    As I recover from a broken foot, you provide great inspiration to follow!

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to TheSalamander
    TheSalamander said:
    I am inquisitive enough to spend time researching on improving running form e.g. by increasing cadence, by increasing stride length without overstriding, by focusing on front knee drive, rear foot push, hips and glutes etc and then experimenting and looking at the resulting data after a run. 

    I would recommend "the running revolution" book from Dr. Nicholas Romanov. The most technical about running form I have found so far. Let me know if you have found others.