No deep sleep?

Abraham said:

I want the same algorithm as the vivoactive sport, according to a review the epic and the fenix is inferior to the vivoactive. 

Based on my experience, I think the "review" is wrong, and flawed.  I don't want Garmin to change a thing - since it ain't broke, don't fix it.

HTH

While i like his videos, i doubt that 1 person with few nights/workouts can determine if a device is good or bad.

If it was so easy, i think, that garmin would not have issues to buy a 500 dollars EEG device and test their smartwatches before releasing.

While i guess that fitbit is definitely better at sleep tracking, i don't have big issues with my actual Garmin device(not yet Epix 2).

And i had fitbit sense in past and got few times sleep recorded while sitting and watching tv. And HR during activities was really bad(one of the reason why i changed it) for me and other people that complained on their forum...opposite of what our scientist noticed during his test.

I'm not saying that he's wrong...but there are so many variables that is not enough to say "it's good and you will not have problems" or "it's bad and everyone will have issues with it".

He already got a noticable difference between 2 testings on Fenix 7

Basically, "if I don't like or agree with Science, Science is wrong".
Yes, quite a common pattern nowadays.

Beside that there are facts and opinions. Often my Fenix 6 gave me impossible phases sequences which do not exist in human physiology, not to mention countless times it told I've had a restful night while I woke up super tired and sometimes (less so) the other way around.

However the beauty of Science is that you can test the same conclusions on try to refute the conclusions. And not, just because you don't like them is not enough.

What firmware? Can you please provide more info? Thanks.

Labronico said:

However the beauty of Science is that you can test the same conclusions on try to refute the conclusions. And not, just because you don't like them is not enough.

I have tested the conclusions and found them to be false.  And calling a Youtube video "science" is a real stretch...

HTH

Here are the release notes for the latest Epix firmware version (released 11 feb):

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=15913

“Improvements made to on-device sleep detection and sleep staging.”

That sounds promising, let’s hope it really works.

Well, this guy has an PH.D in biomechanical data analysis, so I guess he knows what he's talking about. I agree, that you can't call it a "study", because he's only testing it a few days and only on himslef. But I agree with him (and if you search the forums here, a lot of people have the problem, that Garmin watches overestimate awake time and track almost no deep sleep). It seems to work for some people - like you - and thats great. But it seems not to work fpr another portion and I understand, that they are not satisfied. I think it would be great, if Garmin woul further look into this issue. It's there for quite some time...

There are some major flaws that he mentions - he also fails to mention that the main control device (his EEG) is only 86% accurate to start off with. It would also be good to have another watch as a control device - one he currently thinks is the best - just like the other reviewers do. Note that also some of his top picks were done quite long ago, when he didn't have an EEG, so not so sure its really correct to compare them against ones where he has tested against an EEG. Due to the inherent difficulties around determining sleep stages, and the limited accuracy of his EEG control device, I really do think he would be better looking at overall consistency and reaction to changes (which I think the firstbeat does a great job of picking up) as seeing a change in your trend or it reacting to your changes in lifestyle are far more important than an estimate of sleep stage duration.

I must be one of the fortunate people as the firstbeat tracking works great for me and has done on Suunto 7, Fenix 6x Pro Solar and now on the Epix 2 (or maybe its more the other way around - considering the number of units sold and the actual number of complaints - maybe  it really isn't that much of an issue). The only issue i have ever had with it is picking up sleep before you actually start sleeping (I resolve this by getting up and moving around every 10mins or so - which is probably a good idea anyway - if you have pulse ox on for sleep - you can easily see when it thinks you might start sleeping as the red lights start to show), and very occasionally I have had it fail to recognize I have stopped sleeping - but easy enough to go to sleep tracking widget and state you are now awake (twice in one year have had this happen).

Note that since the initial review he has actually done another test set on the F7 (prior to latest update) and the results were significantly better. I suspect a lot of the issue is his failure to test across a significant enough period. Consider DC Rainmaker, DesFit etc - all of these guys tend to have the unit and test it for approx 1 month before making any sort of conclusions around its accuracy. I would really like to see him do similar. Maybe a quick initial impression like he currently does, then a much longer term one. would be interesting to see the correlation of his results.

Have noticed that he has some other very weird testing methods - i.e. +2 watches on each wrist at same time, when its known this can adversely affect results; tracking gps tracks without waiting for GPS to get a fix. 

I also have an issue in the way he phrases a lot of his results - he doesn't make it very clear cut, and often when something is very good, the way he phrases it makes it sound very bad - have to wonder if this is inherent bias coming out, or just English not being a first language. 

But still give him kudos for at least testing something that no one else is.

Epix 2 at top and Vivoactive 3 at bottom of screenshot. Epix worn on left wrist, Vivoactive 3 worn on right wrist.

Interesting to note the differences in REM sleep, Awake time and Total Sleep. I wonder which one is more accurate?

I'm sure my Sleep Score would be much higher if it was based on the Vivoactive 3 results. For interest my Sleep Score was 62.