Training load, Training effect, Training Status and Vo2max are borked

I'm just going to leave that comment out there, because if I were to base my health on ANY of those numbers right now, I would come to the conclusion that exercise of any kind is back for my health.

Running is bad for my health
HIIT Training is bad for my health
Everything is bad for my health

The training status is all over the place, yesterday after 9 miles of combined running (mon/weds) and Tabata Style HIIT training (tues) the status said....I was in recovery? Not the recovery time, the status. Then I looked at the load, 435 and in the green(but barely). My Vo2 Max went down (from 46 to 45....which was 51 on my prior 5x that I returned but was also my vo2max on my F3HR). Today, my Vo2max is now 46, my status is productive my load is 372 (and nearly halfway in the green) and I have no clue what the in world it is trying to show me. The Training effects are bonkers too. that HIIT training was all strength work....that came back 1.0 Anaerobic (but 2.5 Aerobic). In fact nearly EVERYTHING I DO comes back 1.0 Anaerobic, running, weights doesn't matter nothing makes it move. This is exactly what was happening with my 5X so whatever firstbeat did and then Garmin did....does not work.

This metric data is meant to help gadge us right? To give us a number that tells us where we are and how we are doing correct? So, the watch is telling me i'm lazy, regardless of the fact I have a avg power output of 242 from running, z3/z4 average during workouts, put out nearly 15k steps a day and train 5-6 days a week?

Seriously....what is going on with this model???

0 wojtek_b over 8 years ago

+1 Polar was cumulative, which makes more sense. As it stands, the recovery time on the Fenix 5 is not much use if you are doing back to back training sessions as it never seems to adjust after the first one. They need to revise this for this to be any use.

They won't revise it, as they didn't in the last 3 years for 920XT

0 Jan502 over 8 years ago

I have 4 week unproductive .
After analyse with doctors, colleagues who have the same issue summary:
1) zero alcohol
2) zero sweets
3) every hour 1 glass of water
4) sleep regular every day example the best 22-6am
5) training 5 days per week
6) mix training one day interval one day long 70% HR
7) max training 2 hours
8)use always watch 24h/24h
9) doing stress test every day the same time after woke up and after 1 glass of water and stand
10) reduce coffee max 2 coffee per day and no more than 2 glass of tea

This what help me to have productive status

0 ThiagoSian over 8 years ago

Training Effect is now Productive, as predicted. Just by using the HRM-Run.

0 firstinflight over 8 years ago

First Week -> No status
Second Week -> Productive
Third Week -> Maintaining
Fourth Week -> Non productive

I will be running this week with an HRM-Run, and will update later if the status changes. I am guessing it will.

I have the same experience over the past 4 weeks. I am not quite sure how to interpret it.
My recovery advisor works okay, but training load is in the red for working out alternate days and mixing up cardio and strength workouts - something i have done for multiple years with positive results.

0 dkatchalov over 8 years ago

Yes, I am (and was) aware of what "unproductive" means on the watch. I also stressed that I take these current reports with a grain of salt (because they are borked); but this comment basically confirms my initial point I made when I started this thread:

Running is bad for my health.

The watch made for running with a plethora of running metrics...is telling me not to run. That every time I go out to run I am hurting my health. And that makes zero sense to. Let's take yesterday's 6 mile run for example. The watch reported for training effect 4.0 for Aerobic (sounds good) and 0.8 Anaerobic (what?). I got no anaerobic benefit? Running had NO EFFECT?!? And yes running is aerobic focused, but you mean to tell me the shorter, slower-paced run I did neigh a week ago that gave me a 3.4 Aerobic/2.4 Anaerobic report was wrong? Also, I was doing the same routine I am doing right now and the watch had my status at "Optimal."

You know what i've noticed, this training effect number is bunk. I went back and looked at workouts I did with my F3HR that I have done also with the F5, you know what I found...

The aerobic training effect number was approx the same number the new training effect numbers are putting out, just split.

It's true, if you had the F3HR, take a look at a workout you've done before and compare it to the same workout using the F5. I did a Tabata Style HIIT training strength workout with my F3HR; TE was 3.6. Did the exact same workout with the F5; Aerobic TE 2.5, Anaerobic TE 1.1 (and never mind the nonsense Anaerobic number, you know since the workout was really nothing but Anaerobic work; nah working as intended). Same number...just now broken in two!! TE 2.0 is a joke and that's the thing:

Everyone takes the Garmin features on their watches with a grain of salt.

How? Why? I'm sorry when I bought this watch (or ANY of the products from Garmin) I expected technology that did what it claimed it was doing, even if within the confines of tech that just can't ever give you precise data (Vo2max for example), it was still going to be within the ballpark of the exact number. If anything, all this watch is doing is just spitting out nonsense that I KNOW FOR A FACT IS INCORRECT. I have years of actual data tested the old-fashioned way or on professional machines...and then there's the years of using Garmin products stating empirically that what this current watch is telling me is just wrong. I don't want to take the information with a grain of salt, or give the multi-million(billion?) dollar company the benefit of the doubt. I want the $700 watch I bought to do what it is supposed to do.

This isn't perception over reality here, I know my physical health in and out. I haven't suffered from some injury or overexerted myself. I haven't changed my lifestyle to the point that there would be expected repercussions. This watch and the software that has come with it doesn't work. It isn't doing what it is claiming to do and frankly I don't need a piece of tech that is telling me to be more sedative and lazy (when doing so would actually be unproductive!!) Yet there is this feeling here (and outside these forums) to just shake it off, or dismiss the problems with the watch. How? You bought this so you can TRACK WORKOUTS AND HEALTH. If it isn't doing this, or is doing this wrong; then it's a sham? Room for error sure, but outright wrong? No, that's not dismissable.

And this went on longer than I planned. While I wanted to address the quoted comment (which I did) I went away from that so I don't it to sound as if this were an attack on the person that made that comment, i'm not and i'm sorry if it comes across that way. I'm just fed up with dealing with bunk numbers that I know to be false.

For me - Garmin's performance metrics are spot on and have so far been a very accurate predictor of my condition, recovery and performance. The v2.0 FirstBeat metrics on the F5 series are a significant improvement in my experience.

From your post it sounds like you need to be aware of the following:

1) Watch takes ~4 weeks to learn your fitness and performance levels. This explains the wild variability in performance metrics in that initial 4 week period;

2) Using the OHR for exercise is nonsense - it is just not accurate or fast enough. If you want accurate performance metrics you need accurate HR data and therefore you need to use a strap;

3) You really need to read up on what the performance metrics mean to get value out of them. Here's an excellent summary: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/runningdynamics/

Also, you need to work REALLY hard to get meaningful Anaerobic TE number after a run. My HR zones, LT and VO2Max have been established in a lab with blood-based LT, etc. I have found that my F5 was able to accurately detect my VO2Max and my LT prior to the test, which is pretty amazing. I have also found that once I've updated my watch with the correct HR zones, I need to be working very hard to achieve meaningful Anaerobic TE number after a workout. It sounds like your watch is just telling you to work harder.

0 dkatchalov over 8 years ago

I'm just going to leave that comment out there, because if I were to base my health on ANY of those numbers right now, I would come to the conclusion that exercise of any kind is back for my health.

Running is bad for my health
HIIT Training is bad for my health
Everything is bad for my health

The training status is all over the place, yesterday after 9 miles of combined running (mon/weds) and Tabata Style HIIT training (tues) the status said....I was in recovery? Not the recovery time, the status. Then I looked at the load, 435 and in the green(but barely). My Vo2 Max went down (from 46 to 45....which was 51 on my prior 5x that I returned but was also my vo2max on my F3HR). Today, my Vo2max is now 46, my status is productive my load is 372 (and nearly halfway in the green) and I have no clue what the in world it is trying to show me. The Training effects are bonkers too. that HIIT training was all strength work....that came back 1.0 Anaerobic (but 2.5 Aerobic). In fact nearly EVERYTHING I DO comes back 1.0 Anaerobic, running, weights doesn't matter nothing makes it move. This is exactly what was happening with my 5X so whatever firstbeat did and then Garmin did....does not work.

This metric data is meant to help gadge us right? To give us a number that tells us where we are and how we are doing correct? So, the watch is telling me i'm lazy, regardless of the fact I have a avg power output of 242 from running, z3/z4 average during workouts, put out nearly 15k steps a day and train 5-6 days a week?

Seriously....what is going on with this model???

I'm assuming that your HR zones are set correctly on the watch and that your HR zones were determined using an accurate/reliable method (lab VO2Max, LT test, etc)? All of these performance metrics are completely dependent on correct/accurate HR zone settings.

Also - you do realise that you could be putting out a lot of training/volume & it could be largely useless (or "Unproductive")? For example if you continue to push your volume, not giving yourself enough time to recover, then your fitness will decrease - you will not be able to put in quality hard sessions (VO2Max intervals, hill reps, long tempo, progressive runs, etc). This is essentially what your watch is telling you - that you are replacing quality with volume, which is unproductive.

As per my previous post - so far my F5X performance metrics have been very accurate in terms of how I feel & have been an accurate predictor of how I will perform. So my experience is completely opposite to yours.

0 jkny over 4 years ago

My watch was fine until I did a marathon mid April. Vo2 was 58 and I was 'peaking' after the run. Then the watch lost all history of vo2 although it was still on Garmin Connect. I did a recovery run and watch said it had detected a new lactate threshold. This was a slower pace for me and ever since it has used that to measure performance. All my subsequent runs are mostly unproductive because the watch thinks I am pushing too hard above the LT it set. Easy runs come up with 3 days recovery. My vo2 appeared again on the watch at 50 and now hovers around 50-52. Even if it had reset itself it usually takes about 4 weeks to fully estimate and now it's been nearly 7 weeks. Vo2 is the lowest it's ever been. Yes I understand it's an estimate but why the sudden change? My health status hasn't changed, my running ability hasn't changed, my heart rate hasn't changed but the watch seems to hate everything i do!!