What would it take for Indoor Rowing to give VO2max? (Concept2, ErgIQ, Firstbeat?)

Nice to see this conversation happening as this is something I've been wishing for for ages now - I've currently got the ErgData app automatically syncing my PM5 data to Strava, but for GC just use the native rowing app and then later manually put in the distance/average power data from Strava. I don't want to use a CIQ app until one can use the "proper" data fields and what I really want is my rowing efforts to be properly factored into my performance metrics along with my cycling and running.

I do think Concept are as much to blame as anyone. With a solid product and lacking any real competition, they appear to have little incentive to be at the cutting edge of anything. Plus I guess the majority of their customers are gyms who just want a stable product that's going to last and aren't really going to be too bothered about device integration. Maybe Concept should offer a choice of head units - PM5 for customers wanting workhorse basic functionality, and a more hi-tech version for individuals wanting more out of it. Trouble is, I don't see the demand being all that high and I think Concept's attitude would just be "we're selling plenty of rowers thanks, we don't need to". Maybe with Concept dipping its toe in the exercise bike market they might get a bit of a push to wake up and smell the coffee, but I think they're relying more on reputation there (especially with gyms) rather than bringing anything new (or even post-2010) to the market.

I might be doing Concept an injustice here, but whenever I've seen this raised before, their response (or lack of) seems to be one of complacent nonchalance. A nicer way of putting that might be that they see themselves as a fitness equipment company, not a technology company and in their market sector (which they pretty much define), those things can still be considered to be mutually exclusive. I'm happy to be proved wrong though!

A devil's advocate point. One specific technical issue is that optical HR sensors really, really struggle to provide good data during rowing activities. In addition to the movement itself, the constant gripping and relaxing of the fingers and wrist muscles makes it difficult to get a reliable/accurate HR from trying to look below the surface to capture pulse flow on the wrist.

That said, obviously, if you were ok wearing a chest belt, this objection goes away.

That is a very valid point regarding wrist HR, and I wouldn’t mind if external HR sensor were set as a prerequisite for the physio metrics to auto-update.

Or even better - let the users decide themselves by implementing the option to toggle physio metrics on/off per activity. The defaults could still be set to give the most reliable data out of the box for «unconcious» users (like today), but the more «advanced» users should be allowed to make deliberate choices to make better use of their devices. (ref. the similar discussion regarding foot pods in another thread)

I would guess that most Concept2 users who are interested in both power and heart rate metrics - and I suppose this is the target group in this discussion - do already have an external HRM connected to their Concept2. At least I know that I do. (I actually row with two chest HRMs at the same time, so I can record HR both in the watch and in the Concept2. One recording will give my Garmin key metrics but no power, and the other recording will give me power and HR but no Garmin metrics. I would love to have that setup simplified!)

So a requirement for an external HRM is probably not a barrier here.

AllanOlesen67 You shouldn't need to use two HRMs for that. A single ANT HRM can be paired with multiple heads units concurrently which is exactly what I do, I have my Garmin HRM Run paired with my fenix and my Concept2 when I row. I guess this would only really be necessary if both your HRMs were bluetooth only, which seems unlikely?

Forgive me if this is a very basic question, I have just recently decided to give rowing a shot in my quest to lose weight, and offset 50+ years of laziness from a desk job. Looking at the online logbook for the Concept 2, I find that in the "Profile" page, under Applications on the left side, there is a list of apps that the Logbook will automagically sync to, or so it would seem. Does this provide the missing metrics that people want? I actually haven't tried it yet, as illness prevents me from doing so at this point, but it would seem to solve the problem. Here's a screenshot. ciq.forums.garmin.com/.../1440936.png

Hi all,
Yes, it's indeed possible to automatic sync the C2 rowing data with Garmin, or to download a fit-file from C2 online log and upload in Garmin Connect. You can find this option in the C2 online logbook under your profile. You need to row with the ErgData app (iOS, Android) connected, so that this app record all the information. Then sync with C2 logbook and that syncs with Garmin Connect.
I see in my Garmin Connect data like strokes per minutes, power (Watts), heartbeat, time, distance and calories. Would be nice if this adds up to a VO2Max score.

I believe all FirstBeat algorithms are running directly on the watch with results being calculated "real time" as part of recording/saving the activity, and I don't think Connect/Connect Mobile is able to calculate i.e. VO2max afterwards for imported activities.

So, for Garmin to be able to "easily" implement VO2max and other FB metrics for rowing, I guess it means that the power data would need to be transmitted directly to the watch while recording the activity.

Forgive me if this is a very basic question, I have just recently decided to give rowing a shot in my quest to lose weight, and offset 50+ years of laziness from a desk job. Looking at the online logbook for the Concept 2, I find that in the "Profile" page, under Applications on the left side, there is a list of apps that the Logbook will automagically sync to, or so it would seem. Does this provide the missing metrics that people want? I actually haven't tried it yet, as illness prevents me from doing so at this point, but it would seem to solve the problem. Here's a screenshot.

OEAGLEO Yes, you can now easily sync your rowing records from the Concept Logbook to Garmin Connect (and other sites such as Strava). However, whilst this does mean that the basic metrics (speed, cadence, power) etc will be captured, Garmin Connect will do no analysis of the data as it would for cycling/running etc metrics captured natively by the fenix - which means no VO2 Max, TSS, IF etc which also screws up the validity of the analysis for when you do cycle/run/swim whatever, as the analytics won't take into account the fact that you half-killed yourself rowing flat-out for an hour a day for the last 5 days. You can of course use the native indoor row app on the f5 and manually add your distance/power metrics from your Concept logbook, but again GC won't do any analysis of this.

I'll comment on what I can with regards to ErgIQ but some of the other items I have no knowledge about such as Firstbeat licensing, etc.

Heart Rate Monitor & VO2Max:

The chest strap is always better and I'd be hard pressed to believe otherwise. If you want ErgIQ to record HR in a way that Garmin analysis uses it the setting Garmin Heart Rate Source option needs to be enabled in ErgIQ. To my knowledge this doesn't impact VO2Max calculations but does get included in training load numbers and reflects in the intensity minute calculations. If I had to guess, and this would be a guess, that because the training load number can be adjusted based on ErgIQ activities that the VO2Max number potentially could be as well if it consumed the power data provided as well. That is as far as I'm willing to speculate because I really don't have any knowledge of the working formula or licensing and personally don't use it.

Native Data Mapping and ErgIQ as a Data Field:

The native use of the data recorded by ErgIQ is solely up to Garmin to utilize. This is not a limitation of ErgIQ or other products which use developer fields. ErgIQ is NOT allowed to record data natively which ErgData can because it controls the FIT file recording. ANT+FE-C when used as a rowing fitness equipment profile requires full control of the recording process due to how the counters and other data are moved. Data fields do not provide that level of control and are just simply not viable in this case. If it was just reading power profiles or other profiles it might be possible but would quickly run into ANT channel limitations and memory issues within Connect IQ if you wanted everything ErgIQ provides you now.

Device Issues:

Older ConnectIQ devices had issues with the ANT generic channel code and probably won't be revisited. I support all the devices because some have success and didn't want to remove support for them for users who like it. All newer generation devices handle this better and should work as expected.