What would it take for Indoor Rowing to give VO2max? (Concept2, ErgIQ, Firstbeat?)

So, obviously right now Indoor Rowing doesn't give a VO2max, nor does it link to any rowers for data support. But for those of us who already have a Concept2 rower in their garage, and would like to see Firstbeat data from the activity....

What would it take (asking Garmin in particular here) to get the Indoor Rowing activity to cough up VO2max updates?

I'm assuming...

HRM or R-R compatible chest strap
FE-C support from the Indoor Rowing activity
Indoor Rowing would need to pull stroke, power, distance data from the ANT frame from the rower
Activity would need to write out whatever data Firstbeat is using (FB already supports rowing in their analytics, does Garmin's license cover rowing ergometers?)
Might need a separate VO2max metric in F5, GCM? Currently shows a split of general and cycling VO2max, would this need to be a third?

Garmin already supports behavior like this for the foot pod analytics and sensor precedence, so aside from developer time what are we missing to add this in?

Top Replies

HermanB over 5 years ago +8

Hi guys,

I asked about this internally a while back and in theory it is entirely possible to extend VO2max and by extension updates to Training Status and anything else that benefits from routine VO2max…
9262751 over 4 years ago in reply to rdugarmin +3 suggested

Hand shown. I’m here because Im looking for this. All the pieces are there - Garmin just has to do the work to connect the PM5 data (sent via ANT+) into the VO2Max calculations.
rdugarmin over 3 years ago +3

Time to resurrect this thread! : )

HermanB and lcj2 it's great to see you guys still active on the boards - has anybody heard from Garmin about the possibilities here to get this working?

Garmin, name…

All Replies

0 TrippyZ over 5 years ago

You would be better off asking Firstbeat. If they don't support it then neither will Garmin.

0 SAHO over 5 years ago

If it is correct as you say that FirstBeat already has algorithms for VO2max for rowing I assume the following is required:

1. HR - todays practice for running and cycling is that any HR data goes - even wrist OHR (but we know that's rubbish - ESPECIALLY for rowing)
2. Power - Is the Concept2 possible to pair as Power Meter ANT+?
3. Implementation of separate VO2max for rowing in device/GC/GCM as I assume that the rowing value would differ from running/cycling values
4. FirstBeat licensing

0 rdugarmin over 5 years ago

TrippyZ, Firstbeat supports rowers in their core suite, plus they tend to use rowers as their basis for a lot of their studies/whitepapers.

SAHO , looks like the C2 with latest firmware will connect to their ErgIQ app over ANT FE-C, but the rower itself doesn't broadcast as a power meter. There have been reports of older Forerunners being able to read power data from them, but the Fenix 5/5+ seems to have lost native FE-C support in a lot of the activities. The watch deeefinitely doesn't expect a non-bike power meter though, since if you try to pair it, it hollers about pedaling : )

Overall, any show of hands for folks that'd love this integration? ErgIQ is cute, but having that functionality native instead of just WDR for the indoor rowing activity would be epic.

0 SAHO over 5 years ago

Probably a shot in the dark, but I can see that the PM5 unit also supports BT, how about pairing it as a bluetooth sensor for power, is that possible?

Hands shown - I would definitely love the integration!

0 rdugarmin over 5 years ago

SAHO, tried that - both using Search All and trying with a direct Power Meter search. Under both FE-C and Bluetooth Smart searches it fails.

Works just fine with ErgIQ though and remembers the pairing with a USB key (but needs to repair every time from the watch side, which is annoying).

If they could just integrate the ErgIQ functionality into the Indoor Rowing activity, we'd be golden - right now, Indoor Rowing is garbage unfortunately. Stroke count is off, it's missing data that GCM expects, just leaves a whole lot wanting. From the sounds of it, C2 would love to have that kind of integration, so it's just up to Kansas what happens?

0 HermanB over 5 years ago

Hi guys,

I asked about this internally a while back and in theory it is entirely possible to extend VO2max and by extension updates to Training Status and anything else that benefits from routine VO2max updates using power data (watts) from a rowing machine. That input coming from the rowing machine could be used as a measure of external workload in essentially the same way that movement speed is used during running and watts from a cycle mounted power meter. That is, of course, assuming that you can get the power data into the watch... and of course there would need to be a big enough market demand for someone to start putting it all together. Speaking personally, just me talking, it does seem like rowing machines would be a good opportunity for connecting with non-runners who want access to the cool feedback from the Training Status widget.

0 rdugarmin over 5 years ago

HermanB that's spectacular to hear! Thanks for chiming in : )

Feasibility-wise, to give you an idea of available data for the rowers I run into the most (and full disclosure I own one at home), Concept2 has their BLE spec published here ( https://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_BluetoothSmartInterfaceDefinition.pdf ), with attributes starting on page 11 - and ErgIQ definitely can receive the power (watts) measurement from C2 at least.

Market-wise, I'd look at the downloads for ErgIQ so far - showing 12,296 times (a probably larger portion of folks upload data from ErgData/Logbook into GC). And that app definitely hasn't reached 100% penetration of its available market - a lot of users don't casually use ErgIQ because you can't just "make it work" with their ecosystem. There are others that don't touch connectivity but would if it was "out of the box", or those that go through ErgData into C2's Logbook service, etc.

My SO and I are happy to help in any way we can to push this along!

0 SAHO over 5 years ago

The competition in sport/smart watches is getting harder everyday, and in that context I would assume that it would be a relatively cheap investment for Garmin to extend the number of activities that would benefit from the (already implemented) set of advanced metrics, in order to hit even bigger groups of consumers and amateur athletes that normally only excersice in gyms etc.

Or to put it the other way around - How many commercial gyms around the world does not have at least one Concept2 rower (and lots of Garmin customers)?

0 HermanB over 5 years ago

A devil's advocate point. One specific technical issue is that optical HR sensors really, really struggle to provide good data during rowing activities. In addition to the movement itself, the constant gripping and relaxing of the fingers and wrist muscles makes it difficult to get a reliable/accurate HR from trying to look below the surface to capture pulse flow on the wrist.

That said, obviously, if you were ok wearing a chest belt, this objection goes away.

0 rdugarmin over 5 years ago

HermanB at least here we're already using chest straps, especially with the rower! I'm a giant fan of Training Load to guide my ad-hoc, Ben and Jerry's fueled, randomly implemented training regimen.

Curious what the rate of strap ownership is among Garmin wearable owners.... but if you're a desk jockey like myself trying to find some cardio variety and track progress, a $40 clearance HRM3 or fresh HRM-RUN and a $10 USB key for the rower are a much nicer investment than a $800 power meter, even on a cheap bike : )