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What would it take for Indoor Rowing to give VO2max? (Concept2, ErgIQ, Firstbeat?)

rdugarmin
over 5 years ago
So, obviously right now Indoor Rowing doesn't give a VO2max, nor does it link to any rowers for data support. But for those of us who already have a Concept2 rower in their garage, and would like to see Firstbeat data from the activity....

What would it take (asking Garmin in particular here) to get the Indoor Rowing activity to cough up VO2max updates?

I'm assuming...
  • HRM or R-R compatible chest strap
  • FE-C support from the Indoor Rowing activity
  • Indoor Rowing would need to pull stroke, power, distance data from the ANT frame from the rower
  • Activity would need to write out whatever data Firstbeat is using (FB already supports rowing in their analytics, does Garmin's license cover rowing ergometers?)
  • Might need a separate VO2max metric in F5, GCM? Currently shows a split of general and cycling VO2max, would this need to be a third?
Garmin already supports behavior like this for the foot pod analytics and sensor precedence, so aside from developer time what are we missing to add this in?
  • 0 over 5 years ago
    lcj2 thanks for chiming in here! Great to see you around this thread - ErgIQ has been an awesome crutch for me to get C2 data into GC. Understandably Garmin can't selectively open up special parts of CIQ to certain developers (aside from it being a VM nightmare, the "but meeeee" moments would drive everyone crazy). But they definitely could go the same way as some of the running pods, etc, and treat it as an external sensor input to the Indoor Rowing activity.

    My question to you though would be - would you be OK helping Garmin speed up their process of integrating there, assuming the odsweng team the time and prioritization to add that functionality in? Completely understandable if you'd rather focus on your user base, but I'd imagine there are some "lessons learned" from your dev time on ErgIQ that could make the difference between a 21 point feature and a 13 point feature : ) and there'd still be plenty of use for the ErgIQ app on devices like the Edge where you don't have that kind of activity natively!
  • 0 over 5 years ago
    Since you are so clever, please tell me how to connect an ANT+ HRM to a PM3.


    From the tone of your reply I'd guess my attempt to help wasn't welcome so I apologise that the information I gave wasn't applicable to your situation and apparently caused you affront.

    Neil
  • 0 over 5 years ago
    lcj2 thanks for chiming in here! Great to see you around this thread - ErgIQ has been an awesome crutch for me to get C2 data into GC. Understandably Garmin can't selectively open up special parts of CIQ to certain developers (aside from it being a VM nightmare, the "but meeeee" moments would drive everyone crazy). But they definitely could go the same way as some of the running pods, etc, and treat it as an external sensor input to the Indoor Rowing activity.

    My question to you though would be - would you be OK helping Garmin speed up their process of integrating there, assuming the odsweng team the time and prioritization to add that functionality in? Completely understandable if you'd rather focus on your user base, but I'd imagine there are some "lessons learned" from your dev time on ErgIQ that could make the difference between a 21 point feature and a 13 point feature : ) and there'd still be plenty of use for the ErgIQ app on devices like the Edge where you don't have that kind of activity natively!


    I'm always willing to help when time permits. The majority of issues are related to Garmin Connect not integrating the data that I hear about. This is something Garmin would need to do it they wanted to. As for VO2Max calculation on the device, that would be dependent on if the device could read developer data and if they could use it. The information is there, I just don't know if they would want to use it or if they even could.
  • 0 over 5 years ago
    Hi all,

    I'm a new user with the Forerunner 645, but noticed this thread so thought I post here.
    I do indoor rowing and use the Concept2 Ergdata app that records my rowing workout. I'm happy with the C2 logbook automatically synchronise with GC, so I have my rowing workout in GC.
    The 645 also can record the indoor rowing activity. But the one workout gives 2 seperate entries in GC, one recorded with my 645 and one recorded with the C2 Erdata app.
    I hoped GC would combine both entries into one rowing workout, but that's not the case.
    I'm happy the 645 OHR is almost identical to the C2 heart strap reading.
    The 645 has Training Effect data, that's missing with the C2 Ergdata. But the Ergdata app has powermeter info (watts), that's missing with the 645. Not yet figured out what's best to do here and which entry is best value to save. Suggestions?



  • 0 over 5 years ago
    Hi all,

    The 645 has Training Effect data, that's missing with the C2 Ergdata. But the Ergdata app has powermeter info (watts), that's missing with the 645. Not yet figured out what's best to do here and which entry is best value to save. Suggestions?


    Right now there is no good answer. That is more or less the reason for this thread to have been created in the first place, I think.

    I use the same approach as you.

    If you count calories, you should note that C2 or Garmin have recently made a change so the imported C2 workouts now come with calories. Until recently the calories were 0 in Garmin Connect for those workouts. This means that you will get double Activity Calories. And perhaps also double Active Calories - I have seen some strange behaviour, and I don't know yet what to conclude from it.
  • 0 over 5 years ago
    Forgive me if someone has already mentioned it in this thread - I couldn't see it anywhere, but there is a way to get a V02 max estimate from a Concept2 ergo (or any other ergo) but it is not easy...you have to do a 2k test!

    https://www.concept2.co.uk/indoor-rowers/training/calculators/vo2max-calculator

    The formula is:

    V02 = (Y * 1000) / Weight

    Y is determined as follows: [TABLE]
    [TR]
    Female Male [/TR]
    [TR]
    Weight Weight > 61.36kg Weight Weight > 75kg [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Training Level: HIGH[/TD]
    [TD]Y = 14.6 - (1.5 * Time)[/TD]
    [TD]Y = 14.9 - (1.5 * Time)[/TD]
    [TD]Y = 15.1 - (1.5 * Time)[/TD]
    [TD]Y = 15.7 - (1.5 * Time)[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Training Level: LOW[/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Y = 10.26 - (0.93 * Time)[/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Y = 10.7 - (0.9 * Time)[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD] [/TD]
    [TD="colspan: 4"]Time is the pace converted to minutes.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    A possible way to estimate it for other durations at maximal effort is to apply Paul's law http://www.machars.net/.

    It does not provide any way to work out V02 max at other levels of exertion.
  • 0 over 5 years ago
    One annoying thing about going from ErgData -> C2 Logbook -> Strava is that the power data from your rowing workouts gets merged with your historical cycling power data in Strava.

    Strava doesn't keep track of power separately by sport type, so your cycling power curve gets corrupted with rowing data anytime you upload rowing workouts that contain power data.
  • 0 over 4 years ago

    Hi everybody.
    I'm new to this forum, and I'm new to Garmin wearables, too, so it's time for a few words about me.

    I'm from Italy. Forgive for my English. I'm 66 years old, and I've been in IT for as long as 38 years. I've been quite an active runner, and today I'm an avid rower. I mostly row in Zwift, crafting C2 data as a legit bike. I also own a Fenix 5.

    So said, waiting for Garmin & C2 to work this out together, a workaround exists, and I'm happily using it just now.

    It's, of course, a hack, as you need to hack power and SPM coming from the C2 to pretend they're from an indoor bike. You need to simulate an ANT+ speed sensor, too, and this is the trickiest issue. But It's up and working, at least at me. Data went processed by firstbeat, and my C2 workout contributes to my VO2max into Garmin Connect and to my training status.

    Shortly, I'm using a Raspberry to read watts and SPM via ANT from the PM5 and broadcast an ANT+ power and cadence sensor. I also add a speed sensor on the fly roughly based on 3 x C2 speed, that's not needed by Zwift but mandatory for Garmin. Of course,  indoor speed means nothing.

    I don't want to bore you now with actual details, more news if someone is really interested, and in the end for not highly skilled people the short answer is an image to flash the Raspberry with ...
    IMHO.
    Cu. Paolo.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to 8369131

      Any chance you could throw the code up on Github, or provide the rPi image? I was looking at doing this myself, but no need to redo existing work. 

    Also, where did you find that Garmin requires a speed data-field for biking w/ V02 Max? Curious as all the docs I see say it isn't required, so it is interesting you found this as a requirement.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to j2d2

    I'm outside home now. I'll try to send you the code, maybe after a PM exchange, asap. Paolo.