Vector 3 Design and Production Problems

Vector 3 design and production problems:


1) The root problem is poor carriage design.

a) The PCB negative contact must be redesigned.
b) The carriage system itself might contain other flaws but focus on those trivial flaws is simply masking the main problem with the battery contact and what that system actually requires for tension while in actual use on the road.

The preload on the batteries is insufficient for the application (IOW, while out on the road cycling). This causes the "spikes" and "dropouts" not because the pedal hardware can't properly measure but because of voltage dropouts in the PCB itself. This leads to the second problem.

2) The secondary problems are caused by inability of the firmware to gracefully recover from the communication problems caused by inconsistent PCB voltage. Hence, firmware enhancements can improve "recovery" from internal PCB voltage problems but obviously can not compensate for inadequate voltage supplied to the internal circuit itself. The firmware can not fix the PCB/battery problem but can help to mask some of the problems and recover in between internally caused DC circuit problems.

Conclusion:

Garmin is using paying customers to complete engineering and QA work that should have been done during alpha and beta (internal and external testing before going in to production and charging customers for their unfinished products). We can't go back in history but Garmin MUST take an active role in the forums, stop hiding the problems, fix the hardware, and inform the paying customers what is really happening now and what Garmin is doing to fix these problems.

I could go more in to detail but the firmware will mask the user experience. The root problem is the internal voltage supplied by the cells and the mineral oil/insulation tape "fixes" are really just a distraction from the main problem where the carriage design is not sufficient. The negative (battery) contact on the PCB must be redesigned for additional preload and possibly the battery cap can also include some kind of spring or "memory" tension enhancer once the PCB is tested for the new preload/tension standard.

I have been in contact with Garmin USA and Asia. Nobody that is in contact with customers knows anything other than triage protocols. The entire way that tech support is organized must change. Garmin is wasting a lot of man hours and this ends up wasting a lot of time of paying customers while discouraging new customers. The basic designs are good. Garmin process QA is horrible. I can't say if the QA engineers are any good because there's no way for me to communicate with them.

Even after diagnosing and documenting these problems I still must waste hours playing around with the stupid RF and firmware problems in order to get my pedals to work properly. I'm not going to get in to details here because that is a distraction that will change every time there is a firmware change. The root problem must be fixed with power and then I also suggest verbose modes as an option for communicating with the pedals and must better tools to help users figure out exactly what is going on after the battery carriage problem is temporarily recovered and until the pedals are properly paired with each other and then with head units and working again as designed. By rights Garmin already "owes" me thousands of dollars for my consulting work that nobody even gains from because that is how dysfunctional the customer feedback ---> QA process is at this time.
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 6 years ago
    Vector 3 design and production problems:


    I wish you'd post that in a new thread instead of here

  • Originally posted by chris2002rock View Post
    Vector 3 design and production problems:

    kelmadics
    Junior Member: "I wish you'd post that in a new thread instead of here"



    Cross-post it all you want. It's absolutely relevant for people looking at beta firmware to solve problems. The engineers must also consider this factor as well. The battery problem is causing firmware problems. Some of the 'fixes' might even be making it worse The more complicated you make the firmware the more likely you are going to mask existing problems and introduce new ones.

    OTOH, If the firmware is more flexible and gives users more options for diagnosing problems and running useful reports that would help validate and quantify the root problem that I mentioned. None of the known problems can be fixed by firmware alone. The firmware can only help diagnose and recover from the existing problems being reported. The firmware must also rev. up to deal with enhanced BLE recording and reporting, sure. But again, that is only helpful if the troubleshooting is improved - but made worse if the root problems are ignored.

    Installing beta software is not supposed to be about roulette or playing games.
  • Cross-post it all you want.
    ...
    Installing beta software is not supposed to be about roulette or playing games.


    In order to keep the beta thread on topic, I pulled this out to a separate thread. Garmin is not shying away from the battery door issue, and we recognize that a hardware problem such as this requires a hardware solution.

    Separately, it is important to understand that the firmware updates are not trying to mask the effects of any battery contact issues on the power data. The recent releases (3.00 and 3.30) had inadvertently exposed some race conditions and simultaneously removed cycling dynamics support required by a particular group of head units. The current beta restores that functionality as well as eliminating the known race conditions at their core.

  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 6 years ago
    i see no big faults with doors, except little black flimsy tape that falls off if you look at it wrong. also, aluminium cap with plastic pedal body maybe wasn't the best idea. aaaand maybe battery door is a little too exposed in case of crash or leaning too much :)

    if negative contact is really a problem, i don't understand how new doors will help with that. except preloading batteries with some kind of spring so they sit firmly against the contact.

    i'm really eager too see the new design. i'm refreshing this forum furiously :)

  • While I agree that the available (although heavily skewed) data seems to point to systemic problems, I am still stumped by the fact that some users (myself included, don't jinx it, don't jinx it...) are completely/mostly problem-free. In addition: If every unit out there would exhibit these issues, I am sure that e.g. Ray Maker would've picked them up, but I totally believe him, when he says that he experienced none of the issues (same for me btw).

    Things get even more complicated, when you take into account that quite a few users seem to be having problems with the replacement unit too.

    I am wondering whether something changed in the manufacturing process due to the large demand - dcrainmaker got his unit in late summer / early autumn. Myself, I got hold of my pedals by December 30th, so maybe the "early" units are all working as expected (of course not 100% of those units, but a sufficiently large amount of them).

    Somebody mentioned a theory that the issues are connected to insufficient out-gassing of the plastic parts which could easily result from speeding up production - combine that with a battery setup that assumes more or less perfect working conditions to do its job and you have the perfect storm.

    Maybe we should attempt to collect and correlate e.g. shipping dates of good and bad units to search for a pattern.
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 6 years ago
    To share a theory, I rarely experience the drop outs except at the time when the batteries were about to be dead.
    I think it has something to do with my weight and the torque I produce when pedaling. I weigh 64kg and produce around 230-250w ftp and 900w max power.
    Maybe larger heavier riders distort or flex the pedals a lot more when pedaling hence disconnecting the battery contacts on occasion?
    I really think this would have been a non issue if they use a spring instead of that "angled board" (dont know the proper term) for the battery contact.
  • Well, I have also not had any problems(knock on wood) and have had my pedals since February. I am 101kg and have an FTP around 260w and 1200w max power, so I'm not sure how much bigger and heavier you're thinking would start to see problems. It is not a quick process to truly root cause the problem, find a good solution, properly test said solution, and then implement that solution. I would rather they take a little extra time to do this right and permanently solve this issue rather than try and get a quick solution out that could cause more problems.