Training with the HR zones

The best way no questions asked is to get a blood lactate test. If you can't get such a thing I suspect for most endurance athletes the best is to base it on your lactate threshold as this is what your training most centres around improving.

Based on my actual measured values the zones based on %LTHR are the closest

Here is a training peaks article as well on the Grey Zone that is Zone 3.

You Really shouldn't be in Zone 3 for Training, Races yes but Training no.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/training-in-the-grey-zone-how-to-avoid-the-zone-3-plateau/

Quick glance and that actually says you shouldn't do most of your training in zone 3 which definitely agree with.

However, how can you hope to race effectively at an effort level you never train at - particularly marathons which is largely zone 3...

> I also always wondered how rec runners (like myself) can train with long runs no farther than 32/35k and ever hope to finish a marathon (especially their first). Some say that running is the one sport where you almost never train at the same intensity as your game/race day performance.

Not sure where that idea comes from. It is largely the purpose of interval training to allow you to train around race effort levels but in such a way that you don't need to take a few days off afterwards.
My best events were 800 and 1500 so we would do 800 pace sessions like 4x400 with 3 mins or 1500 pace sessions like 10x400 or 5x600 or 3x800 with shorter rests. We would also do faster and slower like 6x200 (one of the hardest sessions you can do!) or 3x300 but equally 3K and 5K pace sessions like 8x600 or 5x1000 etc. It is all part of a "training" sandwich. So typically in 2 weeks of training might do one session at each of these paces.

When I did my 2:33 marathon PB I was averaging about 80 miles per week.
Key sessions I thought were
Long run - typically around target time or bit longer sometimes but aerobic - max level 2 mostly. I sometimes ran full marathon distance and even did 30 miles once in about 4 hours.
Tempo/Marathon pace run - I was aiming to run just under 6:00 min miles so often tried to run 59-60 mins for 10 miles. Furthest did this was HM. So do enough of these and you "learn" what to expect on race day. Start these around 10K if not used to them as they are fairly demanding.
Longer intervals - 10xMile, 1 min rest at HM pace was a favourite. Could go slightly quicker than MP tempo but not much different from 10 miles without stopping at MP.
Shorter intervals - 3 or 5K pace but occasionally 1500 pace
Long run every week and ideally 2 of the other 3 per week
Everything else level 1/2 as I felt "just getting the miles in"
Some 5K-HM races along the way. I did a HM PB doing this and best 10K time for years.

So how you do train for the marathon distance without going that far - do some long runs for similar time but obviously keep the effort level down. "Time on feet" runs basically. And then lots of shorter runs at similar level for general aerobic conditioning.

For marathon training she had me run:
- Easy runs (non-interval workouts, non-long runs) as easy as possible
- Alternate weekly long runs in Zone 2 (strict)
- (Other) alternate weekly long runs as a "workout". e.g. 20k moderate, 10k progressive up to race pace. Or 10k moderate, 10k race pace, 10k moderate. (Some of these would be termed "race simulations", but we obviously never ran 42k or even 35k at race pace).

Sounds pretty similar to me then. Only difference is that you combined long and tempo run into one session and it's also a good idea especially if you are on lower overall mileage.
That said perhaps with a few miles warm up and down not that different to my MP tempos which are still fairly long anyway.

Not sure where that idea comes from. It is largely the purpose of interval training to allow you to train around race effort levels but in such a way that you don't need to take a few days off afterwards.

Yeah, I was referring more to some people I know (who trained with university tri clubs) who like to run 5k race simulations and who know people that would run their entire long runs at race pace. Some people can get away with training at race pace all the time, but most can't.

Anyway, I don't feel like googling it right now, but I've read numerous times that in running, practice intensity is different than race day, unlike most other sports. e.g. Basketball drills are at "game speed". In running, you're usually running faster or slower than race day.

And yes, I have heard "time on your feet" often, which explains all the very easy runs, and also the "no long runs longer than 3h" rule of thumb (because you get no additional benefit from over 3h, apparently.)

Wait, I thought Zone 3 was the aerobic zone, at least according to the watch. I've been trying to aim for that and generally failing and spending most of my time in Z4 still unless I forced myself to walk a bit. But now I'm reading that even Zone 3 is too much? Feels like I'm almost gonna be relegated to just fast walking if I'm supposed to only stay in Zone 2.

This is with just % of Max HR, unless I should be using something else with these guidelines. No chest strap so can't do the lactate stuff, but it does look like the upper range of Zone 2 with HRR ~= Zone 3 with %Max HR

% of Max HR would give lower HR ranges than % of HRR so suggest you try that.

There is no actual "rule" here of course. Doing any type of run is going to get you fitter than lots of nothing! And say if you are on short on time a short level 3/4 type run is usually better than a short plod.

How long are you running for? Being able to keep a low HR becomes more difficult on longer runs due to HR drift where the HR will tend to rise a bit "naturally".

The fact you get 3 options suggests there is no consensus.

I tend to prefer %HRR but really these days I just look at the number and if that is in the ballpark of what I am trying to do.

I just looked at the 935. It can automatically detect lactate treshold & max HR but not resting heart rate.
is that correct ?

Then how do you evaluate your resting heart rate yourself ?
I suppose you have to dig in the all-day heart rate graphs of the 935 over a few days to find your resting heart rate ?
then do a max-effort test to find your actual maximum heart rate ? Does garmin provide such a test ?

Thanks for the interesting discussions
As suggested, I guess an actual VO2max & lactate treshold test is the easiest. Then you set your treshold in the watch and you're good.