Readiness and Recovery Time History and Constantly Crazy Numbers

The fact it works for some gives me hope it can be configured to work and that some of my settings are incorrect, hence I contacted support.

As for HR, I can find an all out 5 min bike effort on a climb where I set a new FTP recently.  Avg over 5 mins was 172, so adding 5 we only get 177, and I know I can/do hit mit 180s during indoor races (hotter, no wind to cool, etc). If I were to reduce my Max HR in Garmin wouldn't this lead to higher EPOC for the same exercise and create greater training stress scores, greater recovery time and lower readiness?

Sorry, I'm not willing to do a 5km personal best. I do a bit of jogging but my knees do not like running, a 5 min all out effort would leave me unable to train for days due to knee pain. 

Haigh.Ian said:

Avg over 5 mins was 172, so adding 5 we only get 177

I am not sure you can do this as an equivalent tot he 5km run I am talking about.

Haigh.Ian said:

If I were to reduce my Max HR in Garmin wouldn't this lead to higher EPOC for the same exercise and create greater training stress scores, greater recovery time and lower readiness?

Correct. I am not assuming your HR Max is too low, on the contrary. It is also possible this is a red herring. But again, if you care about these metrics, getting a high confidence in your HR max and rest HR is important

Haigh.Ian said:

Sorry, I'm not willing to do a 5km personal best. I do a bit of jogging but my knees do not like running, a 5 min all out effort would leave me unable to train for days due to knee pain.

Understandable.

A cursory search pointed out to a couple of options using biking:

https://trainright.com/cycling-field-test/

https://www.cycling-inform.com/how-to-test-for-your-cycling-max-heart-rate#:~:text=Warm%2Dup%20for%2010%20to,on%20the%20Heart%20Rate%20Monitor.

You can also perform the LT Test with the watch, take you LTHR and divide by 0.9. 

From my experience, TrainerRoad ramp test is pretty good at getting your HR high :-D I use it to estimate both my FTP and max HR at the same time. Works for me pretty well, training intensity seems dialled in and my HR zones align with my RPE. And when my sustained power is in the threshold zone then my HR is in the threshold zone - even with default zone settings.

But from the discussion in the thread, Haigh.Ian's recovery metric indeed seems pretty broken and I doubt a couple of bpms here or there will change anything. I would also try some kind of reset, maybe indeed let recovery drop to zero or even just reset your watch (might also reset other metrics like HRV).

Marcin said:

Haigh.Ian's recovery metric indeed seems pretty broken and I doubt a couple of bpms here or there will change anything

Agreed, yes.

Marcin said:

I would also try some kind of reset, maybe indeed let recovery drop to zero or even just reset your watch (might also reset other metrics like HRV).

It is worth trying but I am not hopeful. I have just reset my watch, without restore any backup and without connecting it at all. I am curious to see how this unfolds.

First off, Vo2 max is estimated right around my previous values after a couple of mn of running and biking. Daily suggestions come immediately and targets are looking good. I can see it will take:

- three days to get a training readiness,

- a week to get a training status and cycling ability,

- 2 weeks for encurance and hill score,

- 3 weeks for HRV status. endurance score.

I will keep it unconnected for 4 weeks so that I can get a VO2 Max trend. Then I will reconnect it, sync it and see if history changes the metrics.

Haigh.Ian said:

I upgraded from a Venu manly for Training Readiness and associated metrics but it has just been a mess, even if I just do a zone 2 ride it still wants 90+ hours recovery time with a readiness of 1. This is for a person doing 15 hours training per week and zone 2 is a recovery day acording to all my other training analysis tool.

I have been thinking about your situation and there is the possibility that the watch is simply right wrt to recovery. Looking at your training load, it is pretty significant around 1,500, reflecting your 15hours of training per week.

You have to realize that TSS, CTL, Form etc, are just load metrics, they don't reflect the physiological cost of training. There is no notion of recovery on TP. If you ramp your training load progressively enough, there is no "slow down" message. You can end up training as much as other top athletes (and maybe you are one of them).

Garmin's recovery is based on EPOC, which reflects the oxygen deficit generated by the workout. The body has to replenish this deficit. If not, you might just be fine, aside from excess stress and limited healing of muscles, etc. but there is always a cost for chronic stress and you have to pay the piper at one point or another.

Clearly, young and healthy athletes can cope with high volume of training, but then there are injuries and early retirement, etc.

We discarded the case where the watch would be overestimated your EPOC: your HR max, Rest HR and HR/Pace data is correct assuming your wear a chest strap.

You are 51 and training 15hours a week. For comparison, that is about my training volume, but my training load is around 700-900 because I respect my recovery times and I keep my training balanced. If I dabble in the 1k+ of load, I can feel the stress in the legs at night. I am particularly worried about my achilles that I screw up when I was using TP only, BTW, a few years back.

These days, my training status is maintaining most of the time and my training focus is balanced 90% of the time, with a low areobic focus maybe 10% of the time.

Remember that recovery times increase significantly with age. Coaches recommend that people over 50 should run every other day max, for example (Jeff Galloway, "Running until you're 100")

Consider you maybe simply overtraining.

Totally agree about the very general nature of the scoring. I'm regularly at low training readiness which correlates with poor sleep and in my case caused by what it sees as poor stress during sleep. Im usually not stressed and once i wake up my numbers begin to improve. possible causes (as i see them) for higher stress during sleep are either mild sleep apnea and or different joint pain from workouts and running, My resting HR in the morning is in the low 50s and low 60 during sleep. I'm 55 years old and some discomfort is a way of life. In short while its frustrating to constantly see low numbers, I've learned its better to just go by how I'm feeling.

Age definitely is a consideration, however I've been training at 600+ weekly TSS for a quite a long time. So anything below 600 is almost recovery, frequently hitting 700+ TSS on a 'training week'. It seems like Garmin measures my training as having much more/higher stress, hence the recovery requirement advised.

I also noticed a difference in my training plaform advice (Xert) and Garmin.  On an endurance day Garmin recommends 54% FTP power, whereas Xerr advises 70% FTP. Garmin's Z2 seems to be very very low.... I know the Z2 disussion is another big topic. In this case when Garmin sees me do 2 hours at 70% FTP, it is seen as high stress with high recovery required, whereas Xert sees this as an endurance/active recovery day.

Guess I need to make a choice and decide which I want to follow, Xert or Garmin, but not both.... However, I do feel that Garmin's recovery time requirement is waaaay off given my fitness level and training history.  Sleep is the other thing I need more of to satisfy Garmin, I am always 1 - 1.5 hours under the Garmin recommended sleep duration, but even when I try I can't stay in bed any longer.

Funny though, and makes me doubt Garmin. I've followed a lot of Garmin advice this week, and in one week my VO2 has dropped by 3, my CTL has dropped below the optimal range, and my training status has dropped back to 'recovery'.  So, if I follow Garmin's advice then all that happens is I lose fitness, VO2 drops and I fall in to a detraining state.... so Garmins recovery and readiness must be incorrect as it doesn't match it's own training status stats.... the two should align. In which case if I want to improve I will need to train at a load and intensity that Garmin thinks is too much for me. I'd love to try something like Whooop to compare is other systems were any better.

hahh, yesterday i got 96hs recovery (the starting was apprx 50), it is the highest what i ever seen, but it was a relatively 2.5hs easy ride (first part harder, second part is verylowZ2). and i am using the watch since almost a year 24/7 (with Polar H10 via BT, HRV logging for other apps), the auto maxHR prediction is a joke, i posted in the forum yesterday, it is underestimating even its own measurement (178 predicted, 181 measured... and wasnt full max effort). (and i am sitting on the bike my upper body like a statue during trainings, i am "pro". my endurance score is 11300 right now, my weekly tss is apprx constant 900 now (unfortunately only indoor biking, from spring it is increasing) except on reco week. the training effect determinations are always off, the ftp prediction is way off with 40 watts underestimation minimum, so the watch can measure 2 things right now in my case: the time is accurate and the gps track outdoor. nothing else 

Luko79 said:

the training effect determinations are always off, the ftp prediction is way off with 40 watts underestimation minimum,

In Garmin's world, if your HR Max is inaccurate, everything falls apart more or less: EPOC (hence Training effect and recovery), the HR/ventilation/duration/output relationship (VO2 Max, Performance Conditon, Stamina, predictions, DSW targets). Even LTHR detection is influenced since mostly the watch is looking for LTHR around 90% of HR Max.