Anaerobic Training Effect targets very hard to achieve

The same appens to me. I can get high TE by running but with cycling I stay very low regardless of the type of training. 
If I use other platforms such as intervals.cu the training load is much higher.

From this https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-technology/running-science/physiological-measurements/training-effect/ it is showing 10 intervals to get anaerobic TE above 2.

Perhaps the DSWs for cycling have too few intervals (and are based on some other training methodology?).

This is borne out by my experience.  If I do lots (ie 10+) of short intervals I can quickly achieve my anaerobic TE.  But am I actually improving my fitness or just cheating?

The Garmin article above also states "As with many Garmin and Firstbeat features, it may take several training sessions for the watch to learn your fitness parameters and produce the most accurate results. While the device is still learning about you, you may see uncharacteristic TE values.".  Maybe my watch is still learning although that seems unlikely given how long I have owned it and how long I've been following DSWs.

It make sense to have to do a minimum number of intervals to have anaerobic benefits. Either way, it seems to me that something is wrong. Running just needs 4 intervals.

Here is the Garmin guidance for cycling which is much less detailed than for running with barely one example https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-technology/cycling-science/physiological-measurements/training-effect/

As you say there seems to be something wrong with the algorithm.

PubBike said:

Is the problem with the algorithm, my HR zones /FTP etc. settings, or my physiology? 

It is working fine for me, but yes, I am in Garmin's metrics nirvana, for real!

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The TE effect is indepent of your HR zones and FTP settings. For more details, check this post:

https://forums.garmin.com/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/fenix-6-series/328934/how-works-cycling-training-effect-estimation

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Your physiology and training history will dictate your power curve, so the ideal duration and intensity for your anaerobic interval will be specific to you.

However, if you follow typical guidance, you should be able to achieve significant anaerobic effect.

Perform 8 to 10 reps of 1mn maximal steady power, followed by 2 to 3mn of rest. You should get within ~5-10bpm of your HR Max.

PubBike said:

My VO2 max is in the top 1% for my age but my FTP is at the low end of "Good".

If the training effect is too hard compared with RPE, it could definitely be the sign that your Max HR is too high. This would mean also that VO2 Max is inaccurate, and likely too high.

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How is your stamina graph from your anaerobic efforts? You should see your stamina drop to the floor during the last intervals.

How did you determine your Max HR?

Thanks for your detailed post - very informative and the link.  My max HR is what I hit at the end of a 5k test on a rowing machine but it is now maybe 8 years ago and I have only been within 9bpm of it on a hard but maybe not totally all-out effort up a 20% gradient hill on a bike since then. 

My stamina graph for an 8x2:00 "VO2max" est TE 3.8/2.0 actual 3.2/0.4:

It doesn't drop anywhere near the floor.

It was on-road not on a turbo so I was finding it hard to control the power precisely.  Out of the saddle on the drops in top gear I struggle to even glance at the power readout on my stem, or hear the warning that I have gone below target.  But when I look at the intervals and the average power I was just not making the target - 20 to 25% too low after the first interval.

This one (Anaerobic 6x0:20 est TE 3.0/3.0) I was closer to the power target maybe most of the time within 10-15% but from the stamina graph it suggests I'm still not going deep enough.  The TE was 2.5/2.3 after first 6 intervals so much better on this ride but was pretty stubborn getting it any higher than that.  By the end it was 3.1/2.8.  This also suggests I just wasn't going hard enough. 

With the intervals using the OHR it takes 30s for my HR to reach a peak.  I tried an activity using a heart rate strap and the curve was smoother but broadly the same, but the stamina curve made more sense.

I think the remedy for me is:

- wear the HR strap instead of the using OHR (I have an HRM3 and an HRM-RUN. Which is better?)

- make sure I am actually hitting the power targets.

which is also your advice in the post you linked above.

Thanks!

PubBike said:

make sure I am actually hitting the power targets.

For anaerobic efforts (typically intervals between 20s and 1mn and change), you can ignore the "target" and go for full maximal but steady effort. The first intervals should be OK, and it should be very very hard to do more than 8 or 10.

Ideally, power targets for anaerobic should leave you with one in the tank. This is to avoid excess fatigue. Don't worry about this dimension at this point.

PubBike said:

Had another look for max HR and I got with 4 bpm of it at the end of May so I don't think it is way off

As long as you use a chest strap, it seems you are OK on that dimension. Rowing should be OK for Max HR test. We are lookign for long strenuous but aerobic efforts. 5k PB or 10k PB running peak plus 5 bpm is usually a good estimate.

PubBike said:

It doesn't drop anywhere near the floor.

I am guessing your FTP and maybe your entire power duration curve is off.

To help reset it in the next few weeks insert these very hard cycling workouts with maximal steady effort (it might take a couple of trials to nail the maximal steady power)

- Max power: after warm up, accelerate cadence to >100, immediately attack the steepest hill on lower, not lowest gear, to keep the cadence higher than ~65. We are looking for maximal power of a 1-2s

- Sprints: go as hard as you can for 15s, cadence above 110, repeat 8-10 times with 3 mn rests (steady is less important here). Try to maximize the peak power.

- Extensive Anaerobic capacity. Same as above with 40s intervals. *Steady* maximal is important now. Interval 8 should be near impossible

- Max aerobic: about 4 intervals of 3mn, maximal steady, rest for 3mn. Interval 4 should be near impossible.

- Threshold; first do the built in FPT test. Then, one day after good rest, hold the FTP power for at least 40mn to make sure the test is working. It still should feel like a maximal effort.

This is assuming your power data is from a hardware power meter. Virtual power numbers are less accurate for hard short intervals apparently.

This process will update your power duration curve, your FTP and your stamina curve should reflect your anaerobic efforts much better.

Note: if your stamina gets to zero for a couple of mn, it is in fact the same problem.

I will try those workouts you suggest.  From your suggestions my cadence is too low also during the maximal efforts, so they aren't really maximal.

Etupes25 said:

This is assuming your power data is from a hardware power meter. Virtual power numbers are less accurate for hard short intervals apparently.

Using Garmin XC200 pedals.  I have used a virtual power meter before and have deleted most of the bogus data from my power curve.