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A general conversation about the future of MIP for our watches..

7828711
over 1 year ago

Just got the 955 Solar.  Love it.  That said, I see Garmin has made great strides in the AMOLED offerings.  I would love to get ahold of their K1 annual reporting to see how they are affecting sales from a financial standpoint, but I am sure it's great for Garmin as many just want the pretty look on the screen (totally get that).   Personally, I was tempted by the Epix myself but living in Maimi, FL where I have bright, non-stop sun every day the MIP display is just amazing.  I love that it "feels" more like a regular watch vs a typical "smart watch" in that sense.  

Anyway, the question I have (which I know none of you can answer, lol) is do we think that Garmin will continue to offer MIP's in the future?  I saw one post on Reddit where someone thought that maybe phasing them out.  That would make me sad (and others I am sure).  But, I can't help but see a pattern in their product offerings that appear to support both types moving forward.:

The base, you have the 45 / 55 (which I am sure may be consolidated to just the 55 in the future).  This of course is MIP screen.

Then, I feel like the 245 will stop and the 255 is really that replacement (also MIP).   The 265 is the dedicated AMOLED version.

Same with the 955 / 955 Solar.  MIP, but the 965 AMOLED version.

Then with the Fenix.  You now have all MIP and all solar.    The AMOLED version would of course be the Epix line.

In fact, the only real place where I don't see an option anymore is on the Marq line.  Now all AMOLED.  Also the other lines like the Venue etc (II dont even pay attention to them, not my style) seem to be going all AMOLED.

What are your thoughts?  Again, this is not a knock against the AMOLED watches.  I am sure they are great, just truly wondering how Garmin will move forward.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to Sergey_Kessel

    Yeah vivomove is what my friend does and that's where it's not the best Smiley

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to Frankysour

    But wouldn't something like an Oura ring be a better choice to be worn simultaneously with a regular watch?

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to Bitti

    Yes it would, and at the moment I am waiting for my IRIS ring, still not on the market... I bought it at reduced "pre-price" throguh a kickstarter campaign and praying since some months for it to become real (I am too cheap for the oura ring full pricing LOL )

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    Garmin please don't kill MIP screens Garmin user is for outdoor activities: Hunting, fishing, diving, hiking amoled is ok for fitness and smart watch , but the real loyalty user always will prefer MIP display over amoled...Watch

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to 7828711

    I'm also a fan of the MIP screen.

    So, please Garmin, keep using it in future models.

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    Note: I say all of this as a 955 user who cares about having a truly always-on display for running workouts. I wouldn't switch to 965 if you gave it to me for free, even though I admit that AMOLED Garmins and Apple Watches look so much nicer.

    7828711 said:
    I saw one post on Reddit where someone thought that maybe phasing them out.  That would make me sad (and others I am sure).  But, I can't help but see a pattern in their product offerings that appear to support both types moving forward.:
    7828711 said:

    Then, I feel like the 245 will stop and the 255 is really that replacement (also MIP).   The 265 is the dedicated AMOLED version.

    Same with the 955 / 955 Solar.  MIP, but the 965 AMOLED version.

    I've seen this reasoning more than once, and I have to say I don't understand it at all. This is just wishful thinking / coping.

    265 is clearly intended to be the replacement for 255. It's called 265 and not 255 AMOLED (for example).

    Similarly, 965 is the replacement for 955.

    Yes, *today* you have the choice to buy a MIP Forerunner. Tomorrow you won't. Same as the iPhone SE 3rd gen (2022) is rumoured to be the last iphone with an LCD screen, which is annoying to people who dislike "PWM flickering" on OLED displays. I'm sure for the past few years, anti-OLED Apple fans told themselves that apple would continue to offer LCD iphones and OLED iphones side-by-side just to make them happy, despite all evidence to the contrary.

    Just because 255/265 and 955/965 are being sold side by side, doesn't mean Garmin will continue to offer MIP in the future. Garmin has not done a single thing to indicate that future Forerunners will have MIP. They've actually done the opposite with this branding.

    If the argument is that 255 and 955 are still being sold, so they're somehow on equal footing with 265 and 965, 245 and 245 Music are also still being sold by Garmin, despite being replaced by 255. Same as 265 replaced 255, even though 255 is still being sold. If you're a brand new Garmin user who isn't concerned with price and you just want the latest and greatest model, are you going to buy a 255 or 265 (without knowing any better)?

    Apple still sells iPhone 14 even though they released iPhone 15. Does that mean iPhone 15 didn't replace 14?

    If Garmin spent all this effort convincing people to buy a 265/965 because it has a beautiful AMOLED screen, how will they convince people that a "275 MIP" or "975 MIP" is somehow an upgrade? OTOH, if they admit that AMOLED isn't a real upgrade for some people, how would they convince us to buy a 265 or 965?

    To me it seems that Garmin may keep MIP for outdoor devices such as Fenix, Enduro and Instinct (as DC Rainmaker mentioned), but all trends indicates that every other model is moving to AMOLED exclusively.

    Consider:

    - Forerunner moved from MIP to AMOLED

    - Vivoactive moved from MIP to AMOLED

    - Venu has always been AMOLED

    - Epix (gen 2) is AMOLED

    - Tactix has an AMOLED version. this may be an exception since it's literally branded "Tactix 7 - AMOLED edition" which perhaps implies that not all Tactix may be AMOLED in the future. it could also be that this is a test to see if they should actually move Tactix completely to AMOLED in the future. Or it could just mean that garmin acknowledges it's the same as Tactix 7, just with a different screen. For all we know Tactix 8 may be AMOLED-only. (Who knows what Fenix 8 will be?)

    You don't see Garmin releasing a MIP version of a model that was exclusively AMOLED (like Venu). You also don't see Garmin marketing MIP as superior to AMOLED in any way other than battery life. In the past they had a whole page which explained that MIP works great outdoors and avoids "distracting color and brightness". Now color and brightness are the selling points of AMOLED, so the only way they can push MIP is to use the battery life argument.

    But you don't have to believe me, just look at the comments DC Rainmaker makes on every review of a new AMOLED watch from Garmin, Polar or Suunto when customers ask about whether these companies will return to MIP:

    (paraphrased)

    - That ship has sailed (for Forerunners)

    - The market has spoken

    - Garmin or Apple would need millions of customers to move the needle on MIP (but the demand isn't there)

    Personally I will:

    - keep my 955 for as long as possible (some people keep their Garmins for 10 years)

    - hold out for microLED or some other pretty display tech that's better than OLED and won't cause burn in, so future smartwatches can once again have true always on displays (or at least always on during an activity.)

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    My first watch was Venu. After 25 months, the display burned out despite not having it on all the time and changing the background image. So Oled is definitely not for me

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to Nogčo

    I saw complaints about burn-in with the early Garmin OLED watches. Supposedly they're a lot better about that with the newer devices.

    I have a feeling that Garmin won't mind if customers have to replace their watch every 3-4 years tho.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to FlowState

    Interesting tidbit from DCR's review of the Polar Vantage 3 (which has, you guessed it, an AMOLED display).

    TL;DR Polar flips between "extra high" and "normal high" brightness modes every 15 seconds when in strong direct sunlight, to avoid burn in and also to allow the user to see the screen at all times without a wrist gesture or button press, at the cost of dramatically reduced battery life.

    Interesting that they are taking a swipe at their competitors here and acknowledging a couple of problems that other manufacturers have glossed over:

    "Now, what’s interesting here is what Polar is doing is trying to make it easier to see the display without gestures or tapping the screen, saying:

    “We intentionally set the brightness level to ‘high’ so that one can use Vantage V3 on a bike handlebar or a bike mount without compromising the ability to read the display.”

    They went on to note that with competitor watches:

    “…their always-on during training under direct sunlight is hardly readable without doing the ‘wake-up’ gesture with the wrist, tapping the touchscreen, or pressing one of the buttons.”"

    TBH if this feature works as advertised, and Garmin added it to 965 (or 275/975), I might buy an AMOLED Garmin after all.

    Full context:

    www.dcrainmaker.com/.../polar-vantage-v3-in-depth-review-test.html

    "In talking to Polar about this, they noted that:

    “When under strong direct sunlight, the watch goes into the special mode where the brightness is switching between ‘extra high’ and ‘normal high’ every 15 seconds. According to the display manufacturer, such a mode is the maximum brightness level that can be offered to ensure that the display doesn’t get burn-in. When you’re under strong direct sunlight, the battery life is around 12 hours with always-on and all other possible high accuracy and navigation settings turned on. When not under strong direct sunlight, the battery life estimate is up to 28 hours with always-on in dual-frequency and with enabled OHR.”

    Now, what’s interesting here is what Polar is doing is trying to make it easier to see the display without gestures or tapping the screen, saying:

    “We intentionally set the brightness level to ‘high’ so that one can use Vantage V3 on a bike handlebar or a bike mount without compromising the ability to read the display.”

    They went on to note that with competitor watches:

    “…their always-on during training under direct sunlight is hardly readable without doing the ‘wake-up’ gesture with the wrist, tapping the touchscreen, or pressing one of the buttons.”

    Now, if you’re not familiar with AMOLED displays, this may all be a bit perplexing to you. But in short, all AMOLED displays (even in always-on mode) will dim the display when your wrist is down (not looking at it), to both save battery but prevent burn-in. Indoors and such, this isn’t a problem. But if in bright sunny conditions, it can be hard to see the watch if off-angle and still in a dim state. Once you’ve worn an AMOLED watch for a short period (maybe a few weeks), it becomes a very natural motion to know how to flick your wrist just barely (talking a few millimeters) to go to normal brightness. People have been doing this for years on Apple Watch and other watches without any issue (the most popular watch by sales volume on the planet).

    However, some people still don’t like it (fair enough), and in particular, if on a bike for example, it’ll generally go into the dimmed state at some point (unless the road is bumpy enough to keep it awake.

    Thus, what Polar has actually done here is ‘fix’ that problem, albeit at the cost of (substantial) battery life. But for someone not doing a 12-hour activity, it doesn’t likely matter – it fixes it and makes them happy. And as I told them privately, this is a super cool feature that none of their competitors have. Except, they aren’t correctly calling it a feature, nor is there any way to turn it off (without turning off AOD altogether). Again – to be clear, what I think Polar has done is brilliant (no pun intended), but…they just need to both document it somewhere, and also let people turn it off."

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to FlowState

    This is nice, but it substantially reduces battery life. MIP displays can offer the same without reducing battery life. They will even stay on all day with full color watch faces without sacrificing battery life.