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Adaptive training for marathon in 6 months time

the_meek
over 2 years ago

I am interested in using adaptive training for a marathon in 6 months time. From what i understand (my 955 hasn't arrived yet) if i enter the race in my calendar then the suggested daily workouts will build to that race, allowing for sleep, recovery, etc along the way, including the required elements (long run, speed, easy, recovery etc). Is that true?

I am curious how the plan will look if i start 6 months out, how will it build my mileage, how will it progress long runs, how many long runs, will it limit weekly mileage if it senses i am struggling, will it change interval/tempo pace as i progress? 

(I understand i will be able to see a week's worth of forward plan)

Any experience, insights how it will work? Thanks 

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to MariusGF

    Lots of interesting thoughts coming through. A few more observations from me after another almost 3 weeks. 

    I get low Execution scores (65%) for interval workouts and high scores (95%) for long/base work. I believe the watch doesn't give any allowance for the transition between intervals. Lots of short intervals and you spend a significant amount of time out of zone (HR based training, pace based training would respond quicker). I've generally followed the workout well so i ignore the execution score for intervals (and mostly for the others workouts too).

    My suggestioned runs have progressed from 5 days per week to often 7 days per week (sometimes with two recovery days, sometimes not). However, once i run one of the recovery days, the second recovery (or another run) can swap to a rest day. I'm generally getting 6 days per week which is spot on.

    The suggestions have started opening up, getting more varied. Now i have seen threshold, tempo, anaerobic intervals, and short sprints; some threshold or tempos are split of 1, 2, or 3 sessions. At most there is one 'big' speed type session and one smaller session per week. These can get dialled back depending on other runs, sleep, recovery, readiness status etc.

    The overall weekly load has been progressing very well, weekly total time 2.5, 3.25, 4, 4, 4.5, 5 hours . I'm in what Garmin calls Preparation Phase, 36 weeks from event. That's plenty enough this far out.

    I'd be disappointed to find out the race goal was nothing more than a calendar marker.  I'll give the watch benefit of the doubt for now given it reports different phases and they may change as the date gets closer.  We could try to compare the last 3 months of a HM build with a marathon build but we may not be seeing the effect of the Garmin plan itself, progression may be determined by that persons ability to perform and recover from the workouts. One aspect of the watch 'knowing the athlete,' is that it should stretch that person in the time available without damaging them.

    If i carry on at the current progression for another 36 weeks then i will definitely be stretched. 

    Most days only Sleep and Sleep History that affect my Training Readiness, others are green. Recovery needs are small at the moment but that will start to have a effect as training builds. Maybe those effects combined will start to bring the Readiness score down and that will trim my progress. Have to wait to see.  

    I'm enjoying a low key approach at the moment, 36 weeks to go so just follow the watch and see how it feels. I'm hitting different workouts and getting progression. Dont need anything else at this stage. 

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    I've found the race predictions get more accurate the longer I have the watch. My predicted marathon time typically reduces by about an hour over the training program. For my last race i was two minutes under the predicted time. The predictions used to be laughable but they can make some sense now, taken with a pinch of salt, once you are in a representative and decent training block.

    I guess the entirety is more suited to 5k to marathon events more than short distances. 

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    Four weeks since my last post on Garmins adaptive training. I'm 32 weeks from my goal marathon race, using FR955 for nearly 11 weeks. Generally been getting good progression, a very useful/sensible balance of workouts, hitting all the energy systems. 

    Training time these last 4 weeks: (hr:min) 4:50, 5:21, 4:15, 5:45

    Overall 10% progression per week over the last 10 weeks. Felt fine doing that, and well ahead of my goal to get back to or exceed the level of training i did before my p.b. 

    CTL and VO2Max are moving in the right direction too with TSB in the range -8 to -13. Mild progression but plenty given i am still a long way out. (CTL and TSB measured elsewhere).

    Generally workouts given are: long, threshold, tempo, 1 or 3 min intervals and 10 or 15 seconds sprints. Tempo and threshold typically 20 mins single sessions, up to 3-4 lots of 7-9 mins. All very simple following the pre-programmed workouts.

    I've noticed sprints and rest days are offered less often with more threshold and 7 workouts per week now. Sometimes there is no long run so occasionally doing my own thing there. No need to push those distances yet but feel better stretching it a little. 

    One thing i have noticed can be quite annoying. Looking ahead to the coming week there can be a couple of juicy runs to look forward to e.g. for next week a 2hr10 long run and 9 x 3mins anaerobic intervals. Then, after a nice base run which went well, both those sessions were replaced with something less interesting (1:10 and 42 min Base runs). The watch must believe i was not ready or in a good place for those so has downgraded me. That may be better in the long term (no real way to know this) but at some point you just have to get these tougher runs done. Because of this effect, e.g. a slightly lower sleep score spoiling my fun, i have sometimes been jumping forward into the week, selecting better workouts from two or three days ahead. I'm generally still covering the suggestions just changing the order. So the plan is undoubtedly adaptive, possibly a little over protective. As i mentioned before it is only Sleep and Sleep History which affect my training readiness, other parameters are healthy green. 

    Over the ten weeks my (easy pace) Stamina has increased from 13 miles/2 hours to 22 miles/3hrs 20. I'm glad it's not suggesting i put that to the test just yet. 

    Pretty happy following the suggested workouts, it's an interesting experiment, and has a casual low key feel about it. All my numbers are going the right direction too. My tempo and threshold paces have dropped nearly a minute per mile over the 11-12 weeks and heart rate is less spikey so some fitness gains coming through. Still a long way off p.b. condition though, but on track to pull it back in. 

    I would like more visibility from Garmin, how the algorithms make the decisions (a few case studies would help) but also understand there is no forward plan as such, the watch is giving you what it estimates you are capable of doing and recovering from. 

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to the_meek

    Thanks for the update! It seems this might be step 1 in Garmin building a full training platform. Hopefully they’ll bring some app and online features so you can customise your training, like locking in runs and winding back changes. 

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to the_meek

    Yes I've also seen some interesting workouts disappear for no identifiable reason, could be sleep indeed. In my case they were threshold sessions. You mention Tempo pace, have you actually had any workouts labeled "tempo" ? I haven't seen any myself.

    Other than the disappearing TPace workouts I've only had Base and Recovery so far for my October 23rd HM...which doesn't seem right. Besides the "Base" runs are generally very short, 33', 37', 42' max, so of course I keep going after that for a total of at least 45' or 60'.

    The upcoming week looks more interesting, 3x7 at TPace tomorrow, 7x1' Anaerobic on Friday...provided they don't get canceled !

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    ok so  I now see a "Tempo" workout planned for next week and it corresponds to Marathon pace, in this case a 34' block. It's planned for next Tuesday so it might change by then.

    I messed up during my first Threshold session on Tuesday, a 4x6' with 2" recovery as I lapped after the warmup, thinking that the warmup was maybe "free" as in a workout you would schedule on older watches and that you had to press lap to actually end it. Anyway it took me to the first 2' recovery and then I did the last 3 intervals and got an 81% score...could have been 75% I suppose ;-)

    Oddly it suggested another TPace session for today, 4x7' this time probably judging I was well recovered (indeed the metrics showed that) but I still felt tired from the previous session (and I did do an unplanned Threshold session last Saturday as I was seeing my race approaching with no TPace sessions under my belt...). Still 2 TPace sessions in 3 days seems a bit much to me!

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to webvan

    It is quite keen on threshold runs, in 8 weeks I’ve had 8 thresholds to only 3 tempo. 
    Strange combinations too. After it downgraded my long and anaerobic workouts it suggested three thresholds, three base and a recovery for the following 7 days. Then again, it had changed by the time I got there. 

    It seems quite intuitive already but it could be very powerful. Let’s hope it grows.

    I’d trust it lot more if Garmin gave some information. Trust in training goes a long way. I have a virtual coach I’ve never met and nobody knows their work !

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to the_meek

    Yeah I'm not sure I'd fully trust it for an "A" race, especially with your additional feedback. Let's see how this cycle goes !

  • 0 over 2 years ago

    How are things going for all of you following an adaptive plan ? I have my B race next Sunday and my A HM on the 23rd...

    I had a lot of hard Threshold sessions, 30', 2x18' with 5' recovery. I've always done TPace sessions but they were easier 3x2k mainly. Hopefully this change will help ! The Tempo sessions I'd seen in the schedule ended up disappearing.

    Also my race predictions had been going down nicely with the adaptive training plan and then just after the latest update they got knocked up by 1' for 5k, 1.5' for 10k, 2' for HM and 3+ minutes for an M. With no change to VO2Max. I guess I'll have to chalk that up to another "untested" change in the latest release !

  • 0 over 2 years ago in reply to webvan

    How long have you been using the "program"?