Daily suggested workout- Poor algorithm?

DPSK said:

this pace is too fast for my HR zone 2. I tried the run once. I ended up 90% of my run in zone 3 and 4.

Hello DPSK ,

1. There is no Garmin power based training for running.

2. Yes the Garmin target heart rate for the Base Run is in Target Zone 3 (You can switch „target type“ in your workout to see your  target heart rate).

3. I have to run in zone 3 to get new VO2max calculation. The Base Run target pace will change when your VO2max change.

Hi Ralf,

1) OK I thought so too.

2) Here is 1 recent activity of mine.

Distance = 21.5 km

Ave Pace = 5:21 min/km, Ave HR = 168

Aerobic load = 5.0, Anaerobic load = 2.1

These stats don't look like a base run to me ???

Just to add further, my max HR is 199.

3) I have no problem getting new vo2max though. I usually see improvements by doing 200m, 400m and 800m intervals. Yes I understand the criteria for vo2max calculation.

support.garmin.com/.../

The recommended power was for cycling. My original post states I'm not a runner. The intended power was hit...every target that the daily workout suggestion specified was hit...spot on in fact and thats my point precisely...the anaerobic load which the algorithm estimated from the workout was considerably over estimated..what it actually gave me was way under...hence my point, is the algorithm fit for purpose? Not on this occasion

I feel like this affected me for a while. Garmin had me LT at 182, max 211. My actual max in so far as I could tell was 204 and the one time I hit 204 I thought I was in serious trouble. So, time and time again I would do 400s and 800s consistently hitting in the ~180-185 range and get almost no credit for it. I've adjusted it down now and can tack on my anaerobic with more consistency. 

Agh here is the thing. Assuming my LTHR = 179 and Max HR = 199.

Whenever a new LTHR is detected, for example new LTHR = 181, my max HR will shift to 201. No where in the activity that I reached a max HR of 201.

So I am not sure if it is a bug or if the algorithm is really correct. I change back my max HR to 199.

Hello DPSK,

Yes I agree, with your stored result you probably missed the target for a Base Run. But you did not wrote what the target Aerobic TE and Anaerobic TE for the session was.

My Base Run workout Targets request an Aerobic TE of 2.5 – 2.7 and Anaerobic TE = 0.0.

I have a Target Pace of 5:35 min/km (VO2max = 54) and Target HR of 145 (max HR=198).

For Aerobic Load of 2.5 he ask me for a 40min Base Run.

Perhaps he asked you for a Long Run with much higher Aerobic TE Target?

It seems that your training load is much higher than mine, because I did not get such long Base Runs. Or it is my age of 51, ...

Before I do the workout I always check Target Pace, Target HR and the TE prognosis. As it is cold in Germany I start to follow the pace target and when I run with bad GPS (below trees) I follow HR target.

After the workout end my Aerobic TE Target match very well to the one in Garmin Connect after the session.

But I totally agree with Pete1336  that Anaerobic TE does by far not match that well. Not sure if documented the Anaerobic TE is so much important, when you have done the session correctly.

Pete1336 said:

it gave me a gain of 1.0- AND the primary ride benefit was Base!

Hello Pete1336 ,

I can confirm in Running that with Aerobic TE 2.5 and Anaerobic TE <2.0 you will get a Workout Label of Base even when you performed a sprint session. That is how the workout label works:

https://www.firstbeatanalytics.com/en/features/workout-labels/

If you what see the sprint label you have to perform the warm up and cool down in a separate file and skip this steps in the sprint workout.

Ralf_23 said:

But you did not wrote what the target Aerobic TE and Anaerobic TE for the session was.

Ralf_23 said:

Perhaps he asked you for a Long Run with much higher Aerobic TE Target?

Suggested was 54 min base at 4:20 min/km. Garmin predicted AE = 2.5 and AN =0

I tell you there is nothing intelligent with the Suggested Workout. Basically, Garmin uses similar calculator like the following link.

I keyed in my best time of 42min for a 10km race, the following website suggests me to run my base (easy run) at 5:11 min/km which also happens to be Garmin Suggested Workout base run.

www.runnersworld.com/.../

DPSK said:

my best time of 42min for a 10km race

Strange, I expect that your 10k best pace/HR is around lactate threshold.

So you are right that this is not the correct pace for a Base Run. You should probably use the HR target and not the pace target for running.

The paces in the calculator from your link are for me not at all the same as the suggested Garmin paces:

The Runnersworld “Easy Run” (6:06min/km) is slower than Garmin “Base Run” (5:35).

The Runnersworld “Long Rung” (6:06 – 6:53min/km) is similar to Garmin “Recovery Run” (6:30)

The Runnersworld “Tempo Run” (5:05min/km) is slower than Garmin “Speed Run” (4:50).

Garmin “Speed Run” pace is actually my Lactate Threshold pace. I think that an actual Lactate Test could give me a faster pace, but I do not update because the workouts are already hard for me.

Garmin correlate the paces very strong to the time to run. Runnersworld say nothing about the time of there “Easy Run” run.

I’m sure that the Garmin algorithm is different, because the suggested Base Run paces change when your VO2max change (But my 10k best, does not change).

I’m quite sure that your Lactate Threshold is important for the Speed and Threshold paces and your training load in the last 3 months does play into the time/km of the workout. All that is not part of the Runnersworld calculator.

PS: Your actual Base Run data (54min) is not the same data as stated in the post before (21,5km) or you was running much longer than the suggested workout said.

Ralf_23 said:

Strange, I expect that your 10k best pace/HR is around lactate threshold.

My best 10k was run at above lactate threshold HR and pace.

Ralf_23 said:

I’m sure that the Garmin algorithm is different, because the suggested Base Run paces change when your VO2max change (But my 10k best, does not change).

You are right the suggested base run depends on the vo2max value. My vo2max ranges from 55 to 58. So suggested base run ranges from 5:10 to 5:40. 

Ralf_23 said:

The Runnersworld “Easy Run” (6:06min/km) is slower than Garmin “Base Run” (5:35).

Let me guess you vo2max is 55?

Ralf_23 said:

I’m quite sure that your Lactate Threshold is important for the Speed and Threshold paces and your training load in the last 3 months does play into the time/km of the workout. All that is not part of the Runnersworld calculator.

These should be correct. Though I have not tried, I think I have no problem with those suggested workouts above base run. My only problem is the base run.