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Bug in the interval workout screen with "pace as target": for the first minute the watch displays in the interval screen a slower pace when starting from a stationary state

SETTINGS: Firmware beta 2.64. Runscribe footpod paired and connected with the watch as "source of speed =always" and "source of distance =always".

EDIT: The initial thread was wrong, so I edited the title and this is the correct issue.

When the footpod is set as source of “pace” and “distance”, the watch gives in all screen instant pace, lap pace and distance with source footpod. I tested this writing an absurd value of 150 as calibration factor, end everything is ok.

The issue has nothing to do with gps pace or foopod pace, but it has another cause, and the issue is present always, when using as source of pace and distance “gps” and when using as source of pace and distance the “footpod”.

I tried to execute the workout and I continued running in the rest periods, without stopping, and everything was fine.

In the interval screen the pace was always near the correct value.

The problem is when I start from a stationary state.

Starting from a stationary state, for the first minute the watch gives wrong pace value in the interval screen, slower than the real value. Probably the watch displays a pace that is an average of X seconds, and for the first minute it takes in account even the seconds before starting the lap, when speed was = 0 (because I was stationary). The pace shown in the workout screen is slower than instant pace and than lap pace (with lap pace I mean the average pace from the beginning of the interval). The pace displayed in the interval screen is probably an average value of seconds that don’t begin with the start of the interval, like lap pace, but contains also some seconds of the previous rest period.

I’m going to change the title of this thread in: “Bug of the firmware 2.64 with watch FR945: for the first minute the watch displays in the interval screen a slower pace when starting from a stationary state”.

EDIT: This was the old post,  I don't erase it, but I discovered that the real issue is what I described above and not what I was thinking when I wrote this post.

OLD POST:  When doing an interval workout with pace as a target, in the  interval screen with the "pace gauge" the watch shows not the footpod pace but gps pace.In another page I had "pace field" and this was displaying the correct pace of the footpod (for example 3:45/km). When I start the interval, for the first 10 seconds approximately in the interval screen is displayed "pace of footpod" for example 3:45. But after about 10 seconds, the watch alarm beeps and the watch displays the gps pace, for example 5/km. The watch then continues beeping and the speed shown changes slowly toward the real speed.

For example   I set today an audio alarm when outside the desired pace (larget from  3:40/km to 3:50/km), but with gps pace it's not useful. For short intervals of 400 m, for example, if I'm running at 3:45 /km pace (instant pace of Runscribe footpod), gps pace especially at the beginning in the first 100 meters is very far  from true value (for example 5:00/km), then at 200 m is about 4:30/km. at 300 meters is 4:00/km and it's near the true value only at the end of the interval.

I started the intervals from a stationary state.

In the other thread I opened ("Bug in the interval workout screen with "pace" as target. The watch doesn't use instant pace.") the conclusion was that  Garmin has always used  in the interval screen "step (lap)  pace" instead of "instant pace"  by design. But if I set in the watch "speed and distance always from footpod", if the watch uses gps pace this is a bug for sure.  

The interval workout screen is very nice for the graphic and colors. It reminds me what step to do and what iteration to do, and how much time I have to rest. But now I can't use the audio alarms and I can't use the "pace gauge".  I hope that Garmin will fix it.

If someone can confirm this behavior, I ask Roland to put this in the list of bugs.

  • It is not using GPS pace... it is using Lap pace, which is the overall pace for the whole lap. The source of that pace could still be your footpod. This is not the same as instantaneous pace.

  • As said above, In the other thread I opened ("Bug in the interval workout screen with "pace" as target. The watch doesn't use instant pace.") the conclusion was that  Garmin has always used  in the interval screen "lap  pace" instead of "instant pace"  by design, like you are saying.  The problem of this thread is that the source of "lap (step) pace" should be my footpod because I set "distance and speed always from footpod". As I said above in my post, the watch uses "lap pace" with source of speed footpod only in the first 10 seconds (and for the first 10 km the "pace gauge" displays a pace about 3:45/km. But then the alarm beeps showing the lap pace is 5/km and the arrow in the pace gauge displays a pace around 5/km for at least 100m. and gradually changes to 4:45/km, 4:30/km. I was running under trees and starting from a stationary state, and this probably confuses gps. I had in the same time another watch that was displaing footpod pace and it was always about 3:45/km (the same speed that I can see now in Garminconnect).

    The watch is using "lap pace", as you say, but it also uses "gps" as source of "lap  pace" and instead in the settings I had "footpod" as source of pace and distance.  If I have footpod as source of "speed" and "distance", then lap pace that the watch uses in the interval screen should have the footpod as source.

    Maybe the only solution should be to turn gps off or use run indoor, but I want to have gps on to see then in Garmin Connect the track where I run.

    Can you maybe replicate the issue with your watch, or is my watch that needs a big "master reset"?

  • Garmin used to use instant pace on one part of the screen and lap/interval pace on the "indicator" which was really useful, but they reverted to lap/interval pace on both workout screens I believe!

  • The problem that I'm complaining about in this post is that  Garmin is calculating  lap/interval pace not with the footpod speed and distance (when in the footpod sensor settings I have "speed and distance" always) but with gps.

    But if I have in the footpod sensor settings "speed and distance = ALWAYS FROM FOOTPOD" then the watch should use gps only to draw the track in GarminConnect, the watch shouldn't use gps as source of lap/interval pace.

  • Is it by chance connected using BLE? I found this thread https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-935/141072/footpod-always-distance-and-pace-for-milestone-ble-pod that seems to say that the Distance = Always doesn't seem to work at all for BLE footpods. I have not noticed this as an issue and I run with a Garmin footpod connected on Ant+ protocol. 

  • No, it's connected using ANT+. By the way this afternoon before writing this thread I did another check putting an unrealistic manual value for calibration of the pod to 150. I could see in one page instant pace and lap distance, and for sure they were coming from the footpod (I was running at 5/km and in was showing about 3:45/km, and even the distance was totally wrong), so instant pace and distance were coming from footpod. I didn't check lap pace!!! I will do tomorrow.

     By the way the three field that I can see now when I set an interval of 600 meters with target from 3:40/km to 3:50/km are:

    1 field: tachymeter (speedometer) with pace gauge ("indicator")

    2 field : remaining distance of the lap starting  from 600 meters and finishing at the end of the interval to 0 meters

    3 field: step time

  • Excuse me guys, I’ve done some more tests and now it’s clear what is going on.

    When the footpod is set as source of “pace” and “distance”, the watch gives in all screen instant pace, lap pace and distance with source footpod. I tested this writing an absurd value of 150 as calibration factor, end everything is ok.

    The issue has nothing to do with gps pace or foopod pace, but it has another cause, and the issue is present always, when using as source of pace and distance “gps” and when using as source of pace and distance the “footpod”.

    I tried to execute the workout and I continued running in the rest periods, without stopping, and everything was fine.

    In the interval screen the pace was always near the correct value.

    The problem is when I start from a stationary state.

    Starting from a stationary state, for the first minute the watch gives wrong pace value in the interval screen, slower than the real value. Probably the watch displays a pace that is an average of X seconds, and for the first minute it takes in account even the seconds before starting the lap, when speed was = 0 (because I was stationary). The pace shown in the workout screen is slower than instant pace and than lap pace (with lap pace I mean the average pace from the beginning of the interval). The pace displayed in the interval screen is probably an average value of seconds that don’t begin with the start of the interval, like lap pace, but contains also some seconds of the previous rest period.

    I’m going to change the title of this thread in: “Bug of the firmware 2.64 with watch FR945: for the first minute the watch displays in the interval screen a slower pace when starting from a stationary state”.

  • It's known that Garmin smoothes instant pace from footpods (and GPS for that matter) over a rolling average of I think 5secs, that's why instant pace is always in increments of 5secs, while avg. pace is displayed to the second. Has it something to do with that?

    Then again, I don't really get what you mean. my advise is to forget the workout screen altogether, its data fields are next to useless. Just create two screens, one for distance based intervals, and one for time based, using lap avg. pace, last lap avg. pace, and distance (or time respectively). Since your instant pace usually matches your avg. pace during intervals anyway (because that's what you strife for) there isn't really a need for the former.

  • Ok, the new topic and description. Now I think I understand.

    Haven't tested it, but I've noticed getting pace alerts in the start of interval even I've thought my pace is good and then the alerts go away.

    So can't confirm, but my experience suggests that it could be how you describe it.

  • jimto, if you can replicate it, Roland can add this in the list of bugs. It's quite easy to replicate, I could see the wrong behaviour yesterday simulating an "interval workout running activity"  while riding a bike and with gps (without footpod). If I go with the bike without stopping in the rest periods, all is good and the pace displayed in the "workout screen" with the tachymeter (pace gauge) is correct for both the rest period and the interval period. When I stop during the rest period, after starting when the interval start it's clear that for the first minute the "workout screen pace gauge" has a bad value (difference from the right value could be also 1min/km, for example real speed is 5 min/km and the watch displays 6min/km). Jimto, your description of the bug is maybe more understandable, the bug could be described under Roland list of bugs with: " Wrong pace alerts in the start of interval when starting from a stationary state even if the pace is good".