Sleep stages and cycles accuracy

Fellas, I am looking for some information about the accuracy of the (i) sleep cycles and (ii) sleep stages advertised in Garmin's sleep reports, specifically with respect to REM sleep and deep sleep. Not even that, I'll settle for just some information about how they actually do it. A week into this research got me absolutely nothing. Zero.

=> Yes, I know Garmin guesses, and I have read what Garmin said on their various websites which is essentially... nothing of substance. They collect "data" (which I presume are limited to HR, HRV, movements and... that's it I guess ?), inject these into an algo and voila.

I fail to see how this can remotely tell Garmin how much time I spent in REM and deep sleeps, and how many cycles were repeated during the night.

One thing that I can observe works very well in my case, is sleep detection*. This works very well at the moment. I have a very well oiled sleeping routine, perhaps this helps, I know when I fall asleep and Garmin will detect that with 10' accuracy. Kudos for that, and I hope further updates won't f*ck this up.

Now back to REM sleep and deep sleep stages. A number of things make me terribly suspicous if Garmin is actually detecting anything, for example: there is scientific proof that alcohol inhibits the production of both deep sleep and REM sleep and at best, produces a state of uncoinciousness, not sleep. By extension the brain is inhibited from entering into both deep and REM sleeps**. Yet Garmin advertises me healthy levels of deep and REM sleeps when intoxicated***. A few weeks ago I went to bed drunk as a skunk after a wine tasting, Garmin's report told me the following morning with a straight face that I had over 2 hours of both deep and REM sleeps Muscle. Even more than I usually have. This is, of course, totally impossible.

In any case, does anyone here have more - substantive - information about what it is that Garmin is doing ? I am probably ok ignoring sleep reports after a night of drinking, as these have become quite rare now, and focus on the "normal" days. I presume Garmin's algos are considering this as a pre-requisite anyway.

* limited to detecting when I fall asleep only. I always end sleep mode manually when I wake up in the morning.

** for anyone interested in sleep, may I suggest Matthew Walker's book "Why we sleep". It's an absolutely masterpiece and explains all this in full details, with EEG and MRI to support his unequivocal conclusions.

*** my sleep scores will be very low because my HRV will be destroyed, but that isn't the point. I am looking at sleep stages/cycles only here.

  • A few unordered thoughts on that topic:

    1. FR255 detects quite precisely the time when I fall asleep. However - sometimes it happens that I wake up within the first few minutes of the sleep and then it takes another few minutes to get back to sleep - Garmin records that as a continuous sleep.

    2. Most of the time I wake up with an alarm, but there are days when I wake up earlier, but keep lying still in bed - Garmin treats that as a sleep.

    3. I have no idea about my real deep/REM phases, so I can't see any value here, BUT I've observed that in the periods when I'm really rested (holidays etc), the sequence of the phases detected by Garmin is a bit different. That suggests there is some "typical" and "relaxed" pattern of my sleep.

    4. The sleep score quite well reflects how I feel in the morning. Especially I have to admit that looking at that score, together with the stress level and HRV at night made me much more aware of the health consequences of drinking alcohol and thus reducing it significantly. And I perceive that as the biggest value of wearing the FR255 at all.

  • Thank you for the input.

    And I perceive that as the biggest value of wearing the FR255 at all.

    This is exactly how I feel too. After I have seen the effects of alcohol on my sleep (or to be more precise Garmin's idea of my sleep), I have reduced my consumption from close to every day, to may be 2-3 times a month. Collateral benefit.

  • @JRKingOfBeer @5148720
    I agree with you both.
    Well, I don't drink alcohol since many years now, but I noticed the when I'm eating fast or processed food in the afternoon, that then my glucose level spikes up and this infect my sleep, especially the stress level during sleep.
    The deep sleep in the first three hour of sleep isn't really there....
    As I said before, it's a watch and not a laboratory there at out wrist, we shouldn't forget that. But it's a good advisor what and what not to do or consume if we wanna sleep in a healthy way Slight smile

  • True about that effect of eating. I've also noticed that eating at least 2h before the sleep vs eating 30min before makes a huge difference. Exactly as you're saying - deep sleep at the beginning of the night is disturbed in the latter case and the stress level is higher.

  • I'm since many years at a 16:8 nutrition rhythm, but if there are days the rhythm get interrupted and I eat street food or fast food the watch notice that with higher stress level, and the regeneration time starts later. And that infect the deep sleep.
    I'm convinced about that the most of our "human" issues "sicknesses" is based by stress. And the sleep is the best way to reduce stress. The problem is that if we're stressed by food, a virus, bacteria, physically or psychic we can't sleep. And the school medicine, the doctors, have not really an answer....
    Therefore it's highly recommended to listen to our own body and stop lying to us self.
    To be in bed from 22:00 till 06:00 doesn't meant you slept 8 hours, the quality of sleep is the important thing... and therefore I'm with Mat Walker QQRT....

  • As far as I'm concerned I evaluate that Garmin overestimates the amount I spend asleep by about 10-15% per night on average (generally in the period from 5 to 6am).

    On Sunday Garmin gave me a nice 98 sleep score but I know it's not real as I also know that I spent an hour, out of these 8 spent in bed, not sleeping. It was a very restorative sleep nonetheless.

    Yes, of course QQRT is important, not just Q (for whoever doesn't know this stands for Quantity Quality Regulatory Timing)

    Also, fully agree that what I have for dinner has an impact on the quality of my sleep, even if I eat several hours before my bed time. A plateful of Spanish paella or other long-to-digest carbs is a guaranteed overnight stress score of over 20 in my case. So for the past year or so, my wife cooks only light dinners (salads etc). I can't always fully decide what food I'm going to have when I go out, or if light food will even be available at all, but if not, I know in advance my sleep will be affected.

  • I find it quite unreliable.

    Yesterday I was watching TV which was interpreted by the watch as "deep sleep". :-)

    Also I find that REM sleep is unreliable. How is that measured anyway?

    I have tried several times to remember the times I dreamed and woke up after, it was not counted as REM sleep.

    In my view the most unreliable is REM sleep, followed by sleep time and deep sleep.

    This is to be expected considering that the watch does not have the needed data.

    HRV is the only variable of some worth.

  • The TV thing is a bit funny. Mindless entertainment.

    I have to assume they tested it in a lab with other devices that record eye movement and other metrics via additional sensors and then tried to correlate that info with the limited data that the watch is able to record. And each person's physiology is a bit different, so it might work better for different people.

  • Last night I didn't have good sleep. I struggled to fall asleep and was awake often. The sleep score is lower, but not as much as I expected. I'm not sure it can tell the difference between lying in bed and sleeping with complete accuracy. It says interrupted, which I agree with.

  • We didn't sleep well every night, so it happens that your sleep is interrupted.
    I'm a "senor" in my early 60th there sleep is different in compare to 20 years younger people.
    Wake up more often, have to pee once in the night and so on.
    I'm also living in a tropic area with night temps around 28C° so that there is am air con running, and I use  sleep mask most of the time. I helps if the temperature is lower then 20C° and it's dark. And as I know is there a state of "sleep" called "DRNS" Deep Rest Not Sleep, our brain activity and as I also know our HF and HRV are low during this status quo. I guess that the watch will record that as REM sleep. And the sleep scientist say that it's a form of sleeping also .... It helps us to get some REM even we didn't get enough during the night, so I understand Mat Walker during his podcast with Huberman. I think it was in the last one.
    As long you wasn't awake longer then 30 minutes at one pice, don't worry and enjoy the day