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Firstbeat powered insights on the Garmin Edge 530 and Garmin Edge 830 - Q&A

HermanB
over 5 years ago
Hey folks,

Big day for cycling enthusiasts.

I'm going to try something new and carve out a little space to proactively share and answer any questions about Firstbeat's advanced performance analytics onboard the newly announced Garmin Edge 530 and Garmin Edge 830. From a 'performance feature' perspective the 530 and 830 are identical, so no need to have separate conversations about each model.

In terms of stuff to be excited about and look forward to... these are the big 2 ones in my opinion. There's obviously some very cool stuff going on with both these new devices, but I'm only talking about Firstbeat related things.

Training Load Balance: https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consumer-feature/training-load-balance/

Heat and Altitude Acclim: https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consumer-feature/heat-and-altitude-acclimatization/

There's also a new label data field (https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consumer-feature/workout-labels/) that summarizes the primary training benefit of your finished ride and a something that I know people have been asking for around here for a while - for the first time you will be able to see the specific Training Load contribution of individual workouts. So, that's something to be super excited about - and a good example of delivering information that folks have been requesting.

Actually, if you scroll down on this page (https://www.firstbeat.com/en/consumer-product/garmin/edge-530/) there is a decent introduction to some more of the new things going on with some additional context.

Other cools stuff to be aware of is the introduction of stuff like Training Status, Training Load, Aerobic and Anaerobic Training Effects, FTP and Performance Condition… all of which have become pretty standard on Garmin's higher-end Forerunner and Fenix watches but weren't widely available (or even invented) back in 2015 when the Garmin Edge 520 and Edge 820 were introduced.

Looks like some good in-depth reviews are already up… so enjoy those… and if you have any questions feel free to ask me and I'll answer anything that I can. ;-) I'll be sure to check in regularly over the next couple weeks.

All the best,
Herman
  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to paulgrav

    My understanding is that Firstbeat licence their metrics PER DEVICE, and not to cloud-based services like Garmin Connect. So yes, you would need to record your TR workout on your Edge. Personally, that's what I do, and I get the metrics showing up in GC. Although I do have to discard the TR workout at the end or delete the duplicate in GC.

    Edit: I have recently discovered I can set up one way sync from GC to TR only (and not TR to GC), thus allowing me to record indoor rides on my Edge without duplication.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to paulgrav

    yes, same with Zwift or other, you get aerob 0,0 and no Training Load, recovery time, etc. this metrics you get only when you record it with the Garmin device himself and they are calculated on the devices and not in Garmin Connect

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to f|33tStA

    Yes, I said that some are visible in GCM, however not all are.  

    The algorithms that calculate the metrics are licensed to the device.  There may be some license considerations around which metrics can be displayed online or in GCM (who knows) but clearly a lot of them already are.  Vo2 Max, Training Load, Training Status.  However Recovery Time is not for example.  And how many are visible in Garmin Connect Web?

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to f|33tStA

    Long standing  moan.

    Honestly if Firstbeat and/or Garmin want traction on these metrics then they need to be more open about how they are used.  For example, license the user and not the device and link it to a Garmin Connect 'Premium' account and move to a recurring revenue model from a irregular transaction model if you really need to hoover in money from the consumer on this.  I'm sure the Connect back-end could perform the post ride processing of Zwift, Sufferfest and TR workouts to calculate those metrics if it really had to.

    This is 2019 and nobody wants to have to use multiple devices to record workouts when its all there baked in the software for you to share and link seamlessly between the platforms.  Its such an unnecessary fudge that ultimately means that for a large chunk of people (i mean who does use a Garmin and TR,Zwift or Sufferfest?) these metrics are worthless.

  • 0 over 4 years ago

    Please Mr HermanB can you be proactive and share + answer everyone's questions like you promised in the initial post!

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to Daveymorrisuk

    sure, that would be the best way! Raised hands

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to calgot

    Is it supposed to work like this? Not really, no. Both devices should be contributing to the same Training Load - and Training Status should be a function of that combined Training Load and the 'most reliable' VO2max trend detected - which will either be from running or cycling depending on which is recognized as most reliable.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to DanielWeist

    Hi - I just now found this conversation and will try to pick through what I can. It would be a big help for me if you would use the @ tag system to ping me - since it's a big forum and I get pretty busy sometimes. 

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to DanielWeist

    To be clear:

    1. EPOC is a great way to quantify the degree of homeostasis disturbance resulting from exertion.

    2. Direct measurement of EPOC could involve you wearing a respiration mask for hours maybe days after your activity. This is, practically speaking, not something people can do. 

    3. Firstbeat utilizes advanced mathematics (this project started back in the early 2000s with one of the original team members writing his PhD on the application of neural networks to HR and HRV data) to effectively predict EPOC accumulation in real time... during an activity.

    4. Given the value of this information and the impracticality - to the point of impossibility - of routine direct measurement, a indirect assessment through the use of mathematical modeling is a good solution.

    This may not quell your concerns, but several years ago I broached the topic of direct vs. indirect measurement to an acquaintance who was finishing his PhD in physics and he seemed a bit surprised, saying, "nothing really interesting is directly measured."  It isn't how most of us think in the course of daily life, but when I stopped to think about what he'd said it made a lot of sense. 

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to paulgrav

    I'm not personally familiar with TrainingRoad and how it's working on Garmin devices. So, apologies if I'm missing the point somehow. 

    Firstbeat powered Training Load, Load Focus, Training Effects, Recovery Time,etc  are only available from activities you record that include HR data. They are all essentially internal load (how hard your body is working) metrics - as opposed to your external load (measuring the work you are doing in the world) metrics that you get from your power meter.

    Firstbeat uses the external workload metric from your power meter for a couple things, specifically for calculating VO2max - and Training Status which is derived from a combination of VO2max and Training Load, and iirc, input from your power meter is used to help pinpoint the start of, say, high-intensity intervals, where you have a significant uptick in exertion before your HR/aerobic system warms up satisfy the new, higher energy demand.