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DSW HR vs. pace

Robert
24 days ago

Garmin Folks, Forum Guys, first of all I would like to say that DSW is an outstanding tool and great feature. I've been using it for more than a year on daily basis. I made significant improvement to my health, well-being and my running capabilities. Big thank you for this feature. It is a must-have for every amateur and intermediate runner. 

My first DSW year was based on HR and I recalculated my HR zones from HR max to LTHR during the year. The second change was implemented by Garmin. They changed anaerobic intervals from HR to pace.

I started to struggle with my VO2 Max runs. According to Garmin my HR Max is 185 bpm, LTHR 164 bpm but it's really hard for me to break the barrier of 170 bpm. My last VO2 Max run based on HR had execution score 0% because I was barely in Z5 below 170 bpm. The target was 176bpm which seems insane because I'm not able to convince my ticker to such hard work.

So I changed my DSW to pace and my first VO2 Max run had target pace 4:45. All interval runs was in target window except recovery runs because I wanted to drop my HR. Therefore execution score was 64%.

But the problem is that those two runs were almost identical. In fact, my DSW based on pace run was slightly slower. In my humble opinion there is something fundamentally wrong with algorithms or with my ticker. Average pace, average HR and max HR was on the same level therefore HR target should be much lower to match my real capabilities or pace target should be higher and I should push insanely more than that to reach 176 bpm.

My questions are:

1. Should I push more and stay on HR based DSW?

2. Should I stay on pace based VO2 Max Intervals because Garmin is not capable of calculate HR target properly? 

3. Is there a chance to recalculate my target HR for VO2 Max intervals to real achievable values from pace based runs?

Edit: All runs with HRM Pro+

  • 0 24 days ago

    Because HR is a lagging indicator of effort, for short intervals such as are typical for VO2Max efforts, you may not reach the target HR before the interval is over. Pace based is probably the better way to go. Even more so if you are using the wrist based OHR sensor rather than a chest strap - OHR is a little less responsive to changes in HR.

    For longer efforts eg. threshold HR is still a useful indicator (after allowing for the fact that it will likely read low for the 1st minute or so. 

  • 0 24 days ago

    Do you use HR belt, chest strap? Actual accurate HR is crucial, which optic hr measurement on watches cant compare. While VO2MAX runs are hard, they are doable, with acurate HR. I do runs with DSW for maybe 3 years, and also enjoyed it. I always have it setted on HR Based, suit me better and for example Sprints are also always Pace based.

  • 0 24 days ago in reply to mcalista

    I understand it's hard even for chest strap to properly measure HR in short intervals but even in 4 x4:00 my ticker runs below or close to 170 bpm.

  • 0 24 days ago

    for vo2max training or for 15 ‘ ’ - 40 '  ’ sprints (actually in sprints you don't have to look at either pace or HR) I use pace (chest strap only in sprints) with ‘base’ / ‘time’ / threshold' runs I conveniently use the heart rate from my wrist and not the pace

  • 0 23 days ago

    "According to Garmin my HR Max is 185 bpm" - maybe that estimation is just wrong?

    Why not determining it during a field test?

    What is the best practice to determine max heart rate? : r/Garmin

    Mine was determined similarly: run 60 seconds as fast as you can, 30-60 seconds walking pause, run 60 as fast as possible again, 30-60 seconds walking pause, run 60 seconds again as fast as possible. All that after a normal warmup with easy running for about 2k and some runners' ABC.

  • 0 22 days ago in reply to Yerk

    Good point. Thank you! I will try this method. As far as I know DSW is based solely on HR Max and LTHR is not taking into account. 

    But I think such professional brand should calculate properly HR Max and LTHR in long-term.

  • 0 22 days ago in reply to Robert

    Garmin made sure that the LTHR or fcmax values were calculated (with the heart rate at the wrist) even without doing intense efforts, even a simple run in z2/z3 detected my threshold. The next day, after resetting the threshold detected by the Garmin, I did another run in z2/z3 to check the reliability of the detection and got a value almost identical to the previous one, in my opinion very reliable for both threshold and fcmax.

    ah, i've been using DSW for a year, i set the FCsport ‘based on threshold’ and it seems to me that the workouts are structured correctly taking into account whether i improve or worsen the threshold

  • 0 22 days ago in reply to Daniele_Suroh

    Yes, but as far as I'm aware LTHR zones are irrelevant in DSW based on your heart rate. Every run is calculated from HR Max only. 

    For example, my zone 2 based on lthr is between 131 and 145 but DSW wants my base run on 139 bpm. And this value is constant for the last year despite my LTHR improvement. And this is because HR Max is constant.

    So I agree that LTHR is recalculated but there is something odd in HRMax. And if HRMax is faulty than all DSW based on HR is in bad zones. You can look at my first post. For pace DSW my average HR 154 gave execution score 64% but for HR DSW it gave 0%. This is the same training with the same effort but different scoring.

  • 0 22 days ago in reply to Robert

    Forgive me a question: in the screen I see that there is no recovery phase but immediately another 2' repetition, did you create a DSW workout yourself and forget to put recovery/rest?

    for the fcmax, what value would you get if you used that formula (stupid, but it might come in handy) 220 - age?

    edit
    you had hidden the phases sorry