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Improving course navigation visibility and responsiveness for trail running

DrSilverthorn
over 1 year ago

Hi All,

I've been using my F7 for trail runs, and I find the whole experience to be somewhat frustrating thus far. With default settings, I find the map too difficult to read when bouncing down a trail in varying light conditions. It's way too busy with too much information on it. The map is very detailed and is not easy to read as you're trying to watch your footing and navigate at the same time.

I've done everything that I can think of to improve the visibility of the course, including the following:

1. Disabling the map entirely. Although, I still see very important features such as when I pass underneath a main road, so I suspect the map isn't layer is still being drawn.

2. Because I don't think there's a way to entirely disable the maps (see point #1), I set the map details setting to 'low'

3. I use the night map style.

4. Turn off auto-zoom - this feature can surely screw up your navigation in an area with many trails because the zoom level is always changing. And the font that's used to denote the zoom level is so tiny that you have to stop to see what it is... Not really a good implementation.

5. Set gps to 'all systems' - to address the lag and accuracy issues I'm seeing below. Note: I haven't tried 'auto select' yet - that's next. I am wondering though if the lag is due in part to the map being drawn in the background, even though it's disabled.

Doing the above, I mostly see a breadcrumb course trail, with little chevrons overlaid (and sometimes trail names). The chevrons help to effectively fatten the lines, making them easier to see. So mission accomplished on making the route a bit more visible. However, now I have the following issue: If I miss a turn, the route scrolls off screen rapidly, because the default position of the user is offset toward the bottom of the screen already. I also find the position to be quite laggy - this was clearly illustrated when I ran underneath the highway - the map showed me on the other side of the highway after I'd crossed underneath it. Where I run also has many twisting trails with heavy tree cover - so the lag, and the fact that the compass updates somewhat slowly, makes it difficult to tell which turns you're supposed to take. Maybe that would be helped by enabling the basemap, but then the screen is so busy as to be worthless.

I realize the highway underpass is a harder case, but the tree cover. - I'd hope the watch would be designed to have decent reception there.

IMO, course navigation seems to be optimized more for hiking than running, Is there something I'm missing with the above list that I should be doing to make the watch work better for navigating a course when trail running? While visibility is better - I'd hope to maybe be able to make the course line fatter, but there doesn't seem to be any way to do this.

  • 0 over 1 year ago
    DrSilverthorn said:
    not easy to read as you're trying to watch your footing and navigate at the same time.

    I think anyone trying to navigate using a map on wrist watch while running on technical trails is on a hiding to nothing. The best option is to stop and look. It’s safer for starters as less likely to fall. It’s also easier to see the map and for the sake of a few seconds well worth the time. 

    DrSilverthorn said:
    navigation seems to be optimized more for hiking

    I don’t think it’s anything to do with being optimised for one activity or another. Simple a case of being able to look at the map easier when hiking. 

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    My experience about this is I find it much easier and reliable with auto-zoom turned off, and map zoom set to 50m or 30m. Allows to check that you're still on the track and see if you come to an intersection. Also, if you ever get off track and the watch beeps, it makes it not too difficult to come back and find the track again.

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    Totally agree with you Former Member.

    Than is something I had to "suffer" with all my Fenix (6, 6x, 7 and 7x) and the main reason I decided to move to another brand...

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to LUISANDES

    I'd be curious to know what you moved to. It seems like one has a choice of compromises these days. 

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    As a trail runner I mostly agree with . I tend to agree that the Fenix series navigation was designed with hiking in mind. It sort of works for trail running but the experience could be significantly improved.

    1) My main issue is the map readability and contrast. Reading the map on Fenix screen on the run when moving fast is quite hard, especially on a sapphire model, and especially when the lighting conditions are variable, such as when running in a forest. Map details are just too small and the lines are just too thin, and the colors are often not contrast enough. This can be somewhat improved by doing a couple of tricks. First, the level of details can be decreased. There are 3 levels of details - Normal, High, and Less. Choosing the "Less" level of details does help a bit, but also I find that that results in trails disappearing from the map sooner when zooming out - see more about that below. The second trick is that the theme can be changed to high contrast. However even the high contrast theme doesn't change enough because it only changes the colors but not thickness of lines. Furthermore, who in Garmin thought that displaying a dashed red line on a green background qualifies as "high contrast"? What about people who are color blind? How are they going to see that? I went one step further and modified the high contrast theme by copying it on the computer and modifying some elements of it. That helps too, but not enough. And I don't seem to be able to get rid of the light green background that appears in some places but not in others. I can't figure out which elements of the map theme that comes from.

    2) The main difference between hiking and running, as far as map usage and navigation goes, is that the map usage pattern is different. Hikers usually go to a destination and the specific path matters less. Trail runners usually take specific paths because they have specific distance and elevation gain goals, or because they need to follow an exact race or FKT course. So it is the path that matters rather than the destination. Furthermore it is the course navigation that matters rather than routing to a destination. Also, having usable, relevant turn directions along the course matters, not the nonsense that Garmin provides (more about that later). Also, having course points that work reliably matters. The existing implementation of course points and Up Ahead barely works (more about that later).

    3) For trail running the map should be optimized to show trails. That's what matters the most. What I find that when the map is zoomed in all the way (e.g. 100 or 200 ft scale), Fenix 7 displays trails reasonably well. But when I zoom out just a little bit to see a bit further and figure out what path through the trails I should get, I find that trails become thiner and then, when zooming out more, disappear. Even major trails like Pacific Crest Trail, disappear when zooming out a bit more. So, basically, I can't use the map to make a decision which trails to go.

    Consider these two screenshots takes in the same location at scale levels 200 and 300 ft - you can see that even at 300 ft (which is about 100 m), trails are already rendered with thiner lines, which makes them harder to see when running in a forest.

    4) I find the map position and orientation to be laggy too - often as much as 5-10 seconds behind. Sometimes as a I run fast downhill I may make a sharp turn and continue on another trail. Then I look at the map and see my position still approaching the turn and oriented the way I was running 5-10 seconds ago. At times that is very disorienting, especially in places where there are multiple possible paths and I need to quickly figure out which way to go. Note that has nothing to do with the GPS accuracy, which I find super good when using dual-band GPS. I think the map slowness is totally a software decision, likely inherited from earlier versions of Fenix when the GPS accuracy was much worse. There is likely some sort of intentional buffering and smoothing that is applied to both position and orientation. That likely works fine for slow paced activities like hiking, but doesn't provide a great experience when running fast.

    5) Turn directions when following a course. That was designed by someone who has never used turn directions on real mountainous trails with a lot of switchbacks and sharp turns in general. What we end up with is a very large number of "false" turn notifications for every sharp bend of the trail. There may be often no other trails for a few miles and you just follow a trail, yet the watch can beep at you every minute notifying you about every sharp bend of the trail. Yet, at the same time, there are often situations when a notification for a real critical turn may be missing if that turn isn't at a sharp enough angle. For example, if you approach an Y shaped trail fork, I guarantee that there won't be a turn notification telling you which trail to take. When hiking slowly one can stop and figure out where to go next. But when running fast, I have to look at the map the entire time to make sure I stay on course.

    6) There is also a small red arrow that appears on the perimeter of other data screens that is supposed to show the direction when following a course. That would be extremely useful if that actually worked. But unfortunately due to overall lagginess of the navigation this feature is more disorienting than it is helpful. As you approach a turn at a high speed, that red arrow lags behind and continues to show straight until you have finished the turn. Then it reluctantly turns too to show in the direction of the course. It should look some distance ahead to be actually useful for trail running.

    7) Course points and Up Ahead. That is another feature that would be extremely useful for trail running, and especially racing on trails, if it was well implemented. But there are some issues that make it nearly useless unless one creates a course entirely in Garmin Connect. I bet most Fenix 7 users who are trail runners are unfamiliar with this feature, even though they would significantly benefit from it. One reason it is very useful for racing on trails, is because Up Ahead could be used to automatically track distances remaining to aid stations or checkpoints, or to other major points of interest in a long run.

  • 0 over 1 year ago

    Hello All

    I'm new to the Garmin world (Fenix 7 Pro Solar), but not new to "offroad" navigation, as I'm using the App Locus since around 10 years for Mountainbiking. I pushed several features in Locus to use it appropriately for this usage. One feature are editable turn instructions in addition to automatic generated (via BRouter) ones. The automatic ones are only generated, if there is a "real" intersection of paths, not if there is only a change in angle of the track over a certain degree ("switchback" problem). As all the OSM data is routable, this is state of the art. With the opportunity of adding and deleting turn instructions manually, you get near perfect "offroad/singletrack" navigation.

    Here is a track designed in Locus with turn instructions, exported as GPX with turn instructions and imported to Garmin Connect Web. All turn instructions appearing as "real" waypoints.

    In Locus, you will than get a notification configurable by distance or time (estimated out of your current speed) before you approaching a turn.

    I would like to use my Fenix for Trailrunning and I'm shocked, when I read "5) Turn directions when following a course. That was designed by someone who has never used turn directions on real mountainous trails with a lot of switchbacks and sharp turns in general. ".

    I was not out with my Garmin yet, to try it out myself. Is it true, that the Garmin watches only "generating" turn instructions by angle change of the path (including switchback problem)? Is it different if you use navigate on the watch to a specific point on the map and the watch is calculating the route vs. using a GPX file or a drawn course from Garmin Connect?

    Why are the maps all routable, if Garmin is not using this information? I returned the COROS APEX 2 Pro last week, because it was even worse in terms of navigation. I thought Garmin is doing it right. They do this navigation stuff since 20 years.

    Sorry, but it seems to be so 2010 here.

    I will try different variants with GPX w/o turn instructions from Locus, w/o turn instructions by garmin connect.........let's see.

    Thanks

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to Jojo

    Hi,

    Far from defending how Garmin handles cue_points and waypoints there is no perfect map that shows all paths so I think  the idea of automatic turns is consider a significant change in direction is “good” once in the USA generally paths are squared…

    GPX files do not bring cue_points but only .tcx and .fit ones.

    The only way I know of importing  a course with intact course_points to a Garmin watch is by copying it USING AN USB CABLE to the folder Garmin/NewFiles.

    Any other way will have GCM or GCW as an intermediate and will mess with your cue_points all up.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to Jojo
    Jojo said:
    Why are the maps all routable, if Garmin is not using this information?

    It can, but that doesn't work well either. It is all quite messed up and few users really understand how it works.

    There are two navigation mode on Fenix 7 watches - routing (using the map) and following a course. The first mode uses on-device routable maps and works just like a car navigation. This mode is used when navigating to a waypoint or when navigating back to start. Routing can also be used to navigate a course, but that doesn't work well at all as it has trouble handling large courses and it doesn't really guarantee actually following the course, and it wouldn't work at all off trail. Also the ClimbPro is currently broken when using routing, for example 

    or 

    The second navigation mode is used when following courses, and it works exactly the same way as it works on watches without a map - the watch overlays the course on top of the map but other than that it doesn't use the map at all. In this mode all turn directions come preloaded in advance in the course FIT file as course points. Usually turn directions are created on the fly by Garmin Connect when the course is uploaded to the watch. And it seems Garmin Connect ignores the map too when generating turn directions because it happily inserts hundreds of "turns" for all the sharp bends and switchbacks on the course. Also it misses real turns. This actually causes a ridiculous situation where Garmin Connect first creates too many of those false turn directions and then, when you try to load the course on the watch, it produces a warning that there are too many course points. Fenix 7 can load only 200 course points and Instinct - only 50 course points. 

    I should add that for trail running I think only "Follow the course" mode is usable. That's what I use 99% percent of the time, except rare cases when I want the watch to route me back to the start point.

  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to silentvoyager

    Same here. I use plotaroute, which has better generation of TBT directions, I then tweak it and add my own, if I have time, since it isn't perfect (but far better than Garmin Connect). I then transfer to the watch via USB or ftp (ConnectIQ app). I think @silentvoyager knows all this, but I include the above for people that aren't aware.

    silentvoyager said:
    I should add that for trail running I think only "Follow the course" mode is usable. That's what I use 99% percent of the time, except rare cases when I want the watch to route me back to the start point.
  • 0 over 1 year ago in reply to silentvoyager
    silentvoyager said:
    ) My main issue is the map readability and contrast. Reading the map on Fenix screen on the run when moving fast is quite hard, especially on a sapphire model,

    I forgot to mention that I have the sapphire screen, so that is part of the problem.

    IMO, you wrote a very good summary. Another thing I have noticed WRT the display of the information is that the user is now at the bottom of the screen with the F7 series. So you go off course, and the only way you can see where you should've gone is to go back a ways until the map updates. When the user is in the center of the screen (F6), it's easier to see where you should've gone because the information is still on the screen (assuming you haven't gone too far).

    Anyway, the 7 series is incredibly powerful and impressive - there are many things I like about it, and it's been really stable. However I find the whole experience seriously marred because of these usability missteps. They need to fix these and add better course management and generation.