Help with TE of some activities

Sorry - but no quite sure I fully understand your issue - I see no problems with the benefits that have been assigned to any of your activities.

I think the issue is that you don't fully understand the difference between high aerobic and anaerobic and what qualifies for it. Perhaps these links will help you better understand and especially the table:

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/fitness/anaerobic-training/

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-technology/running-science/physiological-measurements/anaerobic-training-effect/

If you look at your first activity it is more of a steady pace activity - you have your warm up, which you then elevate pace wise, then have a cool down. At no time are we looking at sharp bursts of activity/intensity which are reflected in your HR.

Your second link treadmill running - has some due to there are some form of bursts of intensity (though extended ones).

3rd link treadmill - very little - due to pace being pretty even - guess the little is due to the couple of dips you had and then the elevation back up again which is reflected in your HR.

4th link Laps - classic sprint intervals with associated sharp bursts of intensity reflected in HR and hey presto Anaerobic....

5th link laps - more interesting as you have your sprints which are reflected in your HR, but when you look at the HR zones you hit, there isn't very much that is intense so its probably due to that, that you get a low aerobic, but are also seeing quite a bit of anaerobic benefit, but overall its a low aerobic benefit. The 4th link baseline is higher than most of the 5th links HR activity and hence why this isn't the same as the previous workout.

6th link - probably agree with that one two - more effort than 5th link, but not in the same class as the 4th link, though due to higher effort during the steady periods definitely correct that this should fall into high aerobic.

What I have found very fascinating from your links is where you have running power data where link 1 seems much higher than link 4. But really don't know much about this metric, and what I have read from Garmin support suggests is more about energy levels you are expending (but though that was stamina function). Or maybe those two link together.... But then again the way high aerobic and anaerobic works, that still fits together somehow - but will look at it closer now that it will be from the wrist.

But as stated to me they all look as though they are working correctly and it does seem more about understanding how low/high and anaerobic work.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/garmin-technology/running-science/physiological-measurements/training-load-focus/

I know that my answers will sound a bit bad so sorry about that in advance.

jaamgans said:

I think the issue is that you don't fully understand the difference between high aerobic and anaerobic and what qualifies for it.

Interesting...as you said, you probably didn't understand my questions.

1)Why i get "Threshold" in some activities and "VO2max" in others when max/average HR is lower in the VO2max activities and higher in "Threshold" ones? There are no mentions regarding anaerobic stuff in the "High Aerobic" part.

(all 3 activities were "Threshold" workouts from daily suggestions)

jaamgans said:

If you look at your first activity it is more of a steady pace activity - you have your warm up, which you then elevate pace wise, then have a cool down. At no time are we looking at sharp bursts of activity/intensity which are reflected in your HR.

Your second link treadmill running - has some due to there are some form of bursts of intensity (though extended ones).

3rd link treadmill - very little - due to pace being pretty even - guess the little is due to the couple of dips you had and then the elevation back up again which is reflected in your HR.

Again, i don't see anywhere that i'm asking about anything anaerobic in this part...there are no bursts because the workout is "High aerobic"...dips in the HR are because of "recovery" parts in between intervals.

The treadmill activities are "Threshold" activities like it was the first one...just different types.

If you want something closer you can take a look to this one https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/9524296537

It's more similar to the treadmill activities but has the same difference...both average and max HR of everything(intervals, recoveries, warmup, cooldown) is lower than treadmills activities but the primary effect is higher(VO2max instead of Threshold).

While i don't mind too much because both are "High aerobic" my question is, just out of curiosity, why this difference?

Is it only because it's a treadmill activity and the calculation is different somehow?

The issue with the pace on the treadmill is because of how the watch/HRM pro are calculating it because the speed was constant...except for the different parts of the workout of course(warmup/run/recovery/cooldown).

But i don't think that pace is affecting too much the training effect, in this case, because the 2 activities on the treadmill are giving the same primary effect also if the first one has underestimated paces and the second one has overestimated paces.

jaamgans said:

4th link Laps - classic sprint intervals with associated sharp bursts of intensity reflected in HR and hey presto Anaerobic....

Thanks but that was just an example of an activity that was supposed to be "Anaerobic" and i got "Anaerobic"...nothing strange about it...no questions about it.

jaamgans said:

5th link laps - more interesting as you have your sprints which are reflected in your HR, but when you look at the HR zones you hit, there isn't very much that is intense so its probably due to that, that you get a low aerobic, but are also seeing quite a bit of anaerobic benefit, but overall its a low aerobic benefit. The 4th link baseline is higher than most of the 5th links HR activity and hence why this isn't the same as the previous workout.

Ok? So what's your point? You're writing what i wrote too and the difference of HR between the 2 is because of the low temperature on the 5th activity...my question is

"I would say that i should bring my HR a bit higher? But how am i supposed to do it considering that i'm already 15 seconds faster than the target?"

Can I assume that you are following the training suggestion activities?  If that is the case, here is the issue in my humble opinion:

The training suggestions are based on pace, presumably using the lactate threshold pace and heart rate to correlate paces with heart rates.  Therefore, you are focusing on your pace for all of the activities and not your heart rate.

The training effect values are based on your heart rate and (as I recall, although I cannot find the evidence quickly) where it is in relation to your max heart rate.

The problem is you are controlling on a different parameter than is being measured for the result.  Pace is a better measure for control when it comes to sprints because heart rate is slower to respond, but for longer intervals or steady runs, there are other variables that can affect the correlation between your pace and heart rate such as elevation changes (I see that you are on a track so you have eliminated this one), whether you are feeling well or sick, whether your body is tired or stressed, the temperature outside, the altitude if you are running somewhere different, etc.  It is like setting a speed target for driving your car, but deciding on whether you did well or not based on the tachometer.

The best solution, in my opinion, is to use heart rate targets for all but sprints and shorter intervals, especially if you want to achieve the target goal for benefit type.

ericgottlieb said:

Can I assume that you are following the training suggestion activities?

That's correct.

ericgottlieb said:

presumably using the lactate threshold

Suggestions should be based only on VO2max while lactate threshold looks like it's in a separate universe.

My threshold pace changed from 4:55 to 4:35, in the last months, together with VO2max while lactate threshold remained the same.

ericgottlieb said:

The training effect values are based on your heart rate and (as I recall, although I cannot find the evidence quickly) where it is in relation to your max heart rate.

Definitely agree with that too. From what i know, the difference from low aerobic(let's say "Base" effect as it's the highest for low aerobic) and high aerobic(let's assume "Tempo" effect as it's the lowest among the high aerobic ones) is determined by the average HR(assuming the run is pretty much constant of course). If the average is higher than 79%(or 80%) of the max HR then we get "Tempo" or higher effect otherwise it's "Base" or lower effect.

That's why i'm assuming that "Tempo", "Threshold" and "VO2max" training effects are all based ,in some way, on the average HR and i was explaining the higher effect with higher effort(Workout is supposed to be "Threshold" but i get "VO2max" because i pushed too much or because my HR was higher for other reasons).

ericgottlieb said:

such as elevation changes (I see that you are on a track so you have eliminated this one), whether you are feeling well or sick, whether your body is tired or stressed, the temperature outside, the altitude if you are running somewhere different, etc. 

It's true that i'm on track in the outdoor examples but i'm using the normal "Run" activity and that's why the elevation is affected by wind and not always accurate.

In the first example there are nearly 80 meters of ascent/descent but it doesn't convince me 100% because i don't see the reason to use the elevation for the training effect.

Correct me if i'm wrong but all the other factors that you listed are already considered by the HR and running uphill would definitely bring the HR higher as it would the wind resistance or anything else so also the elevation factor should be already included with a higher HR.

But i'm getting VO2max in activities that have both the average and max HR lower than the 2 on the treadmill and Threshold effect.

ericgottlieb said:

The best solution, in my opinion, is to use heart rate targets for all but sprints and shorter intervals, especially if you want to achieve the target goal for benefit type.

Yeah i agree but i'm not too concerned about the exact training effect if we are within the same load type.

It was more a curiosity because until now i thought more effort= higher training effect but then the 2 activities on the treadmill surprised me a bit.

I tried to find a link with "power" data but the 2 activities on the treadmill have an average of 379 and 389 and, while the first activity is definitely higher with 415, i found other similar activities with 382 and VO2max effect.

It's definitely possible that i'm on the edge between "Threshold" and "VO2max" and that there's no real explanation as sometimes it will be on one side and sometimes on the other.

I should have an anaerobic activity on treadmill on friday...i would say that it will be easy to get "Anaerobic" primary effect as the temperature is a lot higher than outside but the problem remains because it means that it's impossible to get anaerobic effect outside with low temperatures? I 

Mladen T said:

That's why i'm assuming that "Tempo", "Threshold" and "VO2max" training effects are all based ,in some way, on the average HR and i was explaining the higher effect with higher effort(Workout is supposed to be "Threshold" but i get "VO2max" because i pushed too much or because my HR was higher for other reasons).

Have you seen this page?  It gives more details about how the algorithms select the "workout label" based on your workout.

https://www.firstbeatanalytics.com/en/features/workout-labels/

Besides the examples, it states the following:

Tempo workouts have a large load contribution from sustained moderate- to high-intensity efforts identified roughly as marathon pace. Workouts that improve your VO2max and Lactate Threshold can be sustained steady-state efforts or longer intervals with labels applied based on the relationship between detected intensity and the triggering of capacity development.

ericgottlieb said:

VO2max and Lactate Threshold can be sustained steady-state efforts or longer intervals with labels applied based on the relationship between detected intensity and the triggering of capacity development.

Can you translate it and tell me what is "the triggering of capacity development?" 

By the way another idea popped up in my head.

This is the treadmill activity:

And this is the outdoor activity:

Lactate threshold, for Garmin, was 166bpm in both cases but i don't have any update since august.

Could it be that the watch is detecting a different lactate threshold also if there's no visible updates on the watch? So, let's say when i was running outdoor the lactate threshold detected was around those 166bpm and now it's higher?

Mladen T said:

Can you translate it and tell me what is "the triggering of capacity development?"

I assume it means your body's ability to utilize oxygen and improve VO2max?

Mladen T said:

Could it be that the watch is detecting a different lactate threshold also if there's no visible updates on the watch? So, let's say when i was running outdoor the lactate threshold detected was around those 166bpm and now it's higher?

Anything's possible, but I had a thought -- do you have different lactate threshold and max HR values for your general heart rate zones and the run-specific sport heart rate zone on the watch?  While both the treadmill and run activities should use the run-specific heart rate settings if you have them configured, maybe the watch is actually using the general settings for the treadmill activity?  Totally speculating here.

Hi Mladen T, we generally look to you for advice, but I hope we can help. I noticed that you are comparing runs over time, using various versions of Garmin firmware. I know that from 9.36, which I see in at least one of your runs and you are now running 10.33, Garmin had as one of the fixes, "Fixed issue that could cause inaccuracies in the reported primary benefit for Training Effect." Have you seen any change or improvement since 9.36?

ericgottlieb said:

While both the treadmill and run activities should use the run-specific heart rate settings if you have them configured, maybe the watch is actually using the general settings for the treadmill activity?  Totally speculating here.

As you said, anything's possible but zones are the same for both activities and, i just checked, max HR is the same for running and general activities.

I have only different zones between general activities and running but we are talking about running only so it should not be a problem.

RonHi

that's a bit too much...i'm definitely a lot less expert than many on the forum 

You have a valid point but the 2 activities on the treadmill are with different versions and same primary effect.

And both of them looks more VO2max than Threshold considering the explanation for the 2 Primary effects and considering the HR detected during them.

It would be curious to see for the Anaerobic activities that were labeled as Base or Tempo but i don't plan to go for similar outdoor runs soon.

Personally, i consider the High Aerobic activities done outdoor correct. Yes, it's true that i'm getting a different primary effect but i have an explanation for it: i'm keeping a higher pace than the target, my HR is higher and i'm getting a higher effect...all makes sense.

I just started with treadmill runs so i don't have many activities to use as comparison but they looks a bit weird....for some parts i think i have an explanation but for others not yet.

For example, the 2 activities on the treadmill are exactly the same and i kept a constant speed but the first one is showing 2.0 anaerobic effect while the second one only 0.5. I'm not happy about it but i have an explanation...the pace recorded by garmin is more constant on the second one and i need to try to avoid changes in cadence if i want more accurate data.

But i don't have an explanation on why with higher "heart" effort i'm getting a lower primary effect.

The training effect is calculated based on the estimated contributions of the aerobic and anaerobic systems to produce the work. The watch uses pace or power to estimate work, uses HR to evaluate the oxygen debt (EPOC) and map patterns to identify the contribution of each metabolism to the workout (1)

The level, repeat and rate of change of HR+pace/power determines which metabolism system is used, and at what level (2) . Not the heart rate only(3).

The training label is just categorizing the training effect into buckets. IMO, it is just a convenient way to make sure a certain training regimen is followed and balanced.

https://www.firstbeatanalytics.com/en/features/workout-labels/ (4)

Targets for your workouts are all based on your VO2Max, not your HR, not your threshold data points (HR, pace or power).

For a good TE evaluation, it is essential to have:

- a good VO2Max estimate, which requires a balanced training status, and accurate HRMax, age and weight,

- a reliable data collection (chest heart rate, accurate pace/good GPS connection, consistent power sensor)

- steady pace during the intervals.

I personally found that daily suggestions targets are towards the lower part of the the LT power bands for cycling (5), but the design of the intervals and rest time is very good (6). When I use my own power targets, I hit the desired training effect all the time.

So, focus on keep your pace constant during the intervals. Experiment! Try the same workout with different paces and you will figure out what is a real base, tempo, threshold, anaerobic pace for you.

Mladen T said:

I would say that i should bring my HR a bit higher? But how am i supposed to do it considering that i'm already 15 seconds faster than the target?

Focus on pace, not HR. If you don't max out during your threshold or VO2Max workouts, your stamina will not hit the floor at the end of the workout.  Either you have to run faster, or longer, or you have to do more repeats, and crash that stamina thing!

Base all your zones on threshold. This is the best way to stay align with the background VO2Max estimates. The best thing you can do to help your watch get the best VO2Max estimate is (a) to run a balanced workout program, and (b) from times to times, do a field HRMax test (if your doctor lets you). A field HRMax test is brutal, but it will feed critical data points into the watch.

Notes:

(1) Work is power times time, if work is steady. Work can be also be calculated from speed (pace) using the weight of the individual. The combination of O2 consumption (through heart rate data) is used to recognize patterns that are typical of aerobic and anaerobic effort.

support.garmin.com/.../

(2) For example, Slow and steady long workouts will help VO2Max (aerobic capacity) improve without HR getting above the LTHR. Repeat intervals will help improve VO2Max (aerobic capacity) and/or anaerobic capacity (Functional Reserve Capacity/FRC).

(3) in fact the new data pairs (heart rate and work) will be used to continuously estimate your VO2Max. The small VO2Max variations are reflected in your performance condition.

(4) As you can see, you need short (couple of minutes) powerful outburst, so strong that the aerobic system doesn't have the time to contribute much, to have "exclusively" anaerobic contribution. These are really hard efforts.

(5) For example, in my personal situation, here is how WKO5 subdivides zones above Threshold, and estimates the appropriate duration of the intervals, the total time in the zone, the repeats and the rest time for optimal training (this is all based on coach input). WKO5 FTP, VO2, and dRFC match Firstbeat perfectly. The recommended intervals are based on my own power curve, and they will be different for somebody else.

(6) Garmin's target paces are customized, but I don't think the interval design is, and ideally, they should be. So, how could you determine if your really applied yourself in a high-intensity workout? Easy, look at the stamina graph!

- For a good threshold or VO2 max workout, look at your stamina graph. The workout will be optimized if your stamina hits the ground at the end of the last interval. This is the sign that you have maxed out your anaerobic capacity, while your aerobic system is at the max.

- For a good sweatspot training, your stamina should threaten to drop behind your stamina, but should not.

For anything in zone 2 and 3, each training system has their own approach. Generally, long and steady is the thing. If you go long enough, your heart rate will start to drift up. My approach here is to design intervals as long as possible so that HR stays in the corresponding target zone, while the pace/power is constant.