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Training Effect, Training Status, VO2 Max, and Lactate Treshhold help...

For the life of me...I can't make sense of these metrics!

Without explaining every detail, I've had my Fenix 5 for about 1.5 months, and I can't figure out how to improve these metrics. In fact, despite my consistent training and drive to push myself (with appropriate rest) they're only decreasing. For instance...

I've gone on multiple runs this week with the majority of time spent at or above zone 4, with a good portion spent in zone 5. My aerobic training effect has consistently been at 3.0 or above, and has said "Improving Lactate Threshold: Exerting Intense aerobic effort at or near your lactate threshold during this activity is expected to improve your Lactate Threshold" on multiple occasions. So...I check out my Lactate Threshold, and it is indicating it's only getting worse this week, specifically after the very activities that said it's improving!

On top of that...No matter what I do, I can't move my training status into "Productive". Long runs, short runs, hard runs, easier runs, steady pace, intervals...It doesn't matter. Apparently I'm never productive in my runs and it's really starting to irritate and discourage me. Don't even get me started on VO2 max. That one is a complete mystery to me. Can't improve it to save my life.

I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I'm certainly in shape with a tendency to consistently push myself for better and better results. According to the Fenix 5, not only am I a below average athlete...I'm getting worse.

Could anyone either (a) help me understand what's going on, or (b) give me some insight as to how to start improving these metrics, and what workouts would help accomplish that? I feel like I'm trying everything in many varieties, but nothing is working! ciq.forums.garmin.com/.../1239637.png ciq.forums.garmin.com/.../1239638.png ciq.forums.garmin.com/.../1239639.png ciq.forums.garmin.com/.../1239641.png

0 Ablator2 over 7 years ago

just a quick glance at your training status tells me that you're either under training or over training. That yellow line should stay within those green blocks imho.

Cheers

0 FreekSchepers over 7 years ago

VO2 max changes only in very limited way, and if you are in shape and not increasing training volume and intensity is not likely to change. lactate threshold on my watch bounces around a lot, it's not a very precise measure and needs interval training. I think you should ignore these and for us on training status and training effect. Slowly lengthen your weekly long run, do. one interval session a week with good warmup and some other run and training status will increase.

0 Jan502 over 7 years ago

I think the best way to do training from Garmin. I doing from time when I have f5 and I very happy, because i see progress
1) First you need run regularly example every monday etc from my perspective 5 times per week will be fine 1-2 days rest is mandatory
2) You need mix traing
- one day long run >1h; but slow
-one day intervals take high HRM, ( increase your Lactate Threshold)
-one day slow and short run example 30 min very slow ( reduce your average HRM)
-one day mix training interval slow and little longer than normal
- one day up and down, you need emulate mountain running

3) Regularly sleeping 8h and max 3 coffee per day in other case training will be unproductive
4) keep optimal level training load, when will be close to lower optimal line do intervals , when is very high take day off and do different exercise example swiming.

Remember every 3 days without running, destroying the optimal training load in the long term
Required daily, at the same time do the tress score , when you wake up and stand on your feet, don't check stress score when you lie in bed

0 Zodios over 7 years ago

Hi Ja502

Thank you for recommendations!

Remember every 3 days without running, destroying the optimal training load in the long term
Required daily, at the same time do the tress score , when you wake up and stand on your feet, don't check stress score when you lie in bed


Can you explain why it is should to use Stress test while standing but not lying? Most other HRV apps like Elite HRV or HRV4Training recommend perform test while lying.

0 Jan502 over 7 years ago

Hi Ja502

Thank you for recommendations!


Can you explain why it is should to use Stress test while standing but not lying? Most other HRV apps like Elite HRV or HRV4Training recommend perform test while lying.

Good question why.
Reason I don't know i read on the forum.
From my experience when I lying i have around 50 when i stand is 70
I believe because when you lying always will be very low less than 100 , when you stand can be high, and also you can find film on the youtube from garmin when you meaure before competition you will stay and will be high pick

0 JRMiler over 7 years ago

How knowledgeable are you about endurance training, and running in particular? The Fenix isn't supposed to be a coach; it's just supposed to give you some useful data. For instance, if your training effect is always at least 3.0, then you're probably running yourself into the ground. 3.0 is tough! I might be over 3.0 twice/week at the most. Are you following any kind of a structured plan? Also, 6-weeks isn't really all that long in training terms. If everything has gone very well, then 6-weeks is about the minimum amount of time that is necessary to see any improvement. And other things can have an impact. Lack of sleep, illness, or gaining just 1-2 lbs could easily mask any fitness gains.

If you want your training to be "productive," then at the very least you need to make sure the load is in the optimal zone, which it hasn't been according to these images. There's no mystery there. It's a 7-day rolling total of volume weighted by intensity. Intensity has a pretty big effect, so your load is getting low, then do a hard run or interval workout.

Keep in mind that challenging weather and fatigue can cause you to run slowly at high heart rates, which may cause the Fenix to say that your training isn't productive. It may be correct, if full rest would be better than an easy run, but it doesn't know for sure.

Finally, if you're going to take all of these Firstbeat metrics really seriously, instead of with a grain of salt, then you should be using a chest strap at least for your hard workouts.

0 Funky_D over 7 years ago

Finally, if you're going to take all of these Firstbeat metrics really seriously, instead of with a grain of salt, then you should be using a chest strap at least for your hard workouts.

I'd also recommend a foot pod, since the inconsistency of GPS pace will most likely mess with your v02 max. You have to look at the bigger picture though... how are your other metrics? Is your average heart rate gradually decreasing during runs? Are you getting faster? Running further with less effort? And maybe most importantly, what is your end goal? Are you training for an event, weight loss, or just trying to build up your cardiovascular system? Structure your workouts around those goals instead of what your watch tells you, and eventually your watch will probably start agreeing with what you are doing :)

0 HermanB over 7 years ago

Hi Ja502

Thank you for recommendations!

Can you explain why it is should to use Stress test while standing but not lying? Most other HRV apps like Elite HRV or HRV4Training recommend perform test while lying.

That is a good question, and one that I had to ask myself a while back because HRV-based Quick Recovery Test (QRT) that is part of the Firstbeat Sports professional sports monitoring platform is also a performed lying down - not standing up.

The answer was something to the effect of that by standing a minimal but stable load is placed on the body. Introducing this load reduces the impact of some common factors that influence the HRV phenomenon beyond what that particular test is attempting to report. That minimal load also helps distinguish lower stress levels that might not be clearly seen or masked when you are lying down.

The goal was essentially to make the feedback more reliable and meaningful for folks who are interested in gaining insight, but don?t have the luxury of a professional training staff to examine, interpret, and ensure the validity of daily results.

You could probably lie down if you want, but the feedback scale is calibrated based on the assumption that you are standing.

Hope that helps.

0 JRMiler over 7 years ago

This is only partly true, and not in the way that matters most.

Almost everyone has a lot of capacity for long term aerobic development, which leads to a much higher lactate threshold. What this article is talking about is something you might do to get improvements after you've already taken care of the low-hanging fruit. For most runners, your LT will improve by increasing volume and by running at paces closer to aerobic threshold rather than LT.

0 LTomBerry over 7 years ago

JRMiler the low hanging fruit had already been mentioned, I didn't feel like duplicating effort. But I will now. Yes I agree that running hard every run is a recipe for disaster. OP didn't give too many details on his exact training but did mention he spends a lot of time in zone 4 and 5. Bad idea.
Follow the 80/20 rule. 80% of mileage should be done at a slow, easy pace. This is below your aerobic threshold, so your body burns more fat than glucose. This builds a base of endurance and makes your body more efficient at running. Zone 2 on your Garmin. Increase your volume by no more than 10% per week.
But, at some point if you want to learn to run fast you have to run fast. The other 20% can be used to run hard, like intervals or the link I shared. You can push the intervals long enough to stay in zone 4 but I would try to stay away from zone 5. Make your easy runs easy and your hard runs hard. I have used this concept to go from barely surviving a mile and a half to running sub-4 marathons.
I still stand by my answer though. To directly answer the question on how to improve the lactate threshold, you must do workouts specific to the lactate threshold. After my "fast" running sort of plateaued, I used the concept I described to lower my lactate threshold pace from ~8:00 to ~7:30 in about 4 months.