Training Status - Unproductive

Some Context
I realize that there are multiple threads on this topic already and I have done my best to review all of them.
I have also given the watch 5 weeks of time to calibrate itself.
I have downloaded and read the whitepapers from FirstBeat that discuss and explain VO2max estimation, EPOC development and then how they estimate Training Effect.
I have read a few other white papers as well on this topic. I am not sure I really understand yet how Training Load is calculated.

I have seen the charts in those whitepapers that explain the build up of EPOC and its relationship to % of VO2Max.
Example, a 15 min run at 90% of VO2max can develop a 130 units of EPOC. The same 15 min run at 70% of VO2Max will develop only 45 units of EPOC. Assuming you ended the workout at that point, your Peak EPOC will be those very numbers. I correlated this understanding with my EPOC numbers from prior workouts with a Suunto watch (where Movescount actually tells you the actual EPOC values for the workout, including the peak EPOC reached) and they align.

I have also seen the chart where EPOC and Activity Class are used collectively to predict TE. Example, activity class 6, and Peak EPOC 50 results in a TE of 3.0
This also got me to recognize that Acivity Class played a role in TE determination. I checked on what activity class I had setup in my user profile. I read up on the table (in one of those white papers) that classifies teh activity classes and explains what each of them mean. I picked the one that matched my activity level.

VO2Max from the watch (although mostly unchanged over 5 weeks) seems to be correct and matches up my prior Suunto numbers, as well the 1.5 mile test, and the Rockport test.

I use the bundled HRM chest strap that came with the watch each time I workout.

The issue I am having
Regardless of type of workout, or intensity, I never see any other status on the watch other than "unproductive". This is over 5 weeks.
Here is an example run that I performed yesterday morning (there are several other runs prior to this one, but similar).
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1767866806

Some other info
I am unable to conclude whether the strength workouts or my gym HIIT workouts matter to this discussion, but I have several of those too.
Training Load has been in the green all along (with the exception of a few days when I was traveling and let Load drop to LOW - intentionally did not workout believing that the Load may be the reason that the status isnt changing).

Also want to clarify - I am not complaining nor am I trying to find fault with the watch. I am really only concerned that I may be overdoing the workout in trying to achieve a certain Training Effect (my goal 3.0) atleast 2 times a week. The times I have reached a 3.0, I have felt that it has left me somewhat sore - over and beyond what my trainer used to put me through.
-------------------

What am I missing or doing wrong? It cant be that every workout over 5 weeks is unproductive, especially with -
a) Load optimal,
b) Recovery Advisor reading 0 hours before I began my workout,
c) HRMax as detected by the watch being equal to the 208 - (0.7 * age) value.
d) a good RHR
e) adequate sleep as measured by the watch 24/7 for 3 weeks
-------------------

I don't know of a way to get my Peak EPOC value for a workout from the FIT file. It may help me if I knew that number because i could use that as an indicator. The only way I am able to estimate my EPOC is from the chart in the white paper by using time and the "% of VO2Max" I am running at. I am thinking that the EPOC number on the vertical axis will represent peak EPOC reached, i.e. 50 units for a 15 min run at 70% VO2max.

Your help will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

CPJ

Top Replies

All Replies

0 PubBike over 7 years ago

It enough for the Status indicator to say unproductive because that's what it considers to be the primary indicator of fitness progress.

If your fitness is only varying by a small amount then that would suggest "Maintaining" as your estimated fitness will differ for every workout since it is only an estimate after all.

Seems like the allowed variance in VO2max for the "Maintaining" status is too small.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

If your fitness is only varying by a small amount then that would suggest "Maintaining" as your estimated fitness will differ for every workout since it is only an estimate after all.

Seems like the allowed variance in VO2max for the "Maintaining" status is too small.

... and this is the reason that I had asked the question as whether Vo2max can infinitely increase. In my mind, it cannot...
IF it cannot, then sustaining a level of VO2max should lead to some status - doesnt matter what the label is. In the current framework it should at least lead to "maintaining". If they are using Vo2max as an indicator, a steady, flat value for Vo2max (like I have had for 3 weeks, should lead to maintaining). 'Unproductive' is perhaps a little too harsh and misleading. The way its designed now (at least in my understanding) is that if Vo2max doesnt improve, fitness is not improving and hence the workout is unproductive.

Indeed its only an estimate. Allowed variance could also be contributing to this.

0 --Fred-- over 7 years ago

... and this is the reason that I had asked the question as whether Vo2max can infinitely increase. In my mind, it cannot...
IF it cannot, then sustaining a level of VO2max should lead to some status - doesnt matter what the label is. In the current framework it should at least lead to "maintaining". If they are using Vo2max as an indicator, a steady, flat value for Vo2max (like I have had for 3 weeks, should lead to maintaining). 'Unproductive' is perhaps a little too harsh and misleading. The way its designed now (at least in my understanding) is that if Vo2max doesnt improve, fitness is not improving and hence the workout is unproductive.

Indeed its only an estimate. Allowed variance could also be contributing to this.

The way I understand it the possibilities are:

- Increasing training load: status is overreaching, productive, maintaining or unproductive
- Equal training load: status is productive, maintaining or unproductive
- Reduced load: status is peaking, maintaining , recovery, detraining or unproductive

What's confusing is timing.
The training status obviously changes after each activity (with valid heart rate data). The verdict immediately took into account the trainingload (volume and intensity) of the activity, but obviously the real training benefit (i.e. impact on VO2 max) will only come 5, 7, 10, ... days after the activity depending on the type of effort.
AFAIK, despite the fact that there is an estimation of what each activity will do to your fitness (the training effect per activity), it is NOT taken into account in training status. Training status only looks at current VO2 max. Correct me if I'm wrong.

0 2goBeyond over 7 years ago

The way I understand it the possibilities are:

- Increasing training load: status is overreaching, productive, maintaining or unproductive
- Equal training load: status is productive, maintaining or unproductive
- Reduced load: status is peaking, maintaining , recovery, detraining or unproductive

What's confusing is timing.
The training status obviously changes after each activity (with valid heart rate data). The verdict immediately took into account the trainingload (volume and intensity) of the activity, but obviously the real training benefit (i.e. impact on VO2 max) will only come 5, 7, 10, ... days after the activity depending on the type of effort.
AFAIK, despite the fact that there is an estimation of what each activity will do to your fitness (the training effect per activity), it is NOT taken into account in training status. Training status only looks at current VO2 max. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As I have seen the Training Status changes two ways:

-After a recorded activity
-Start of a new day

Example, monday this week started at unproductive, ran a 5k that morning and it changed to maintaining. Took a walk which I recorded that night, changed to productive. I went to bed that night a little bit past midnight and watched the status change to maintaining. As for the Vo2max, the problem is what information the watch is getting because right now on the website it says mine is 46 but the watch is stuck at 45 (which are both off as after testing i'm at 52, which both runalyze and Golden Cheetah get spot on). Sure, it's just one number, but it just proves the shortcomings with connected data within garmin's infrastructure. The fact we get conflicting information within our recorded metrics is infuriating. My watch says one thing, GCM says another and then the website is another and I don't know which is correct or the defining information. If it is the website, then why is that not being uploaded to my watch if I say connect it to Garmin Express? Why isn't this all cloud based by now. Not only that, but how is the breakdown of proper information on the watch affecting how the watch is interpreting your activities.

Also, if training effect plays no factor, then doing anything that is not based on Vo2max, or does not record data from Vo2max (i.e workouts like strength training, cardio, other etc...) makes TE basically a "fart-in-the-wind." Personally, when I do a workout and get a TE though, I am seeing both Status and Load change in the watch. So either the watch IS getting relevant data from TE and bases the status and load from that or the watch takes no account of the TE and bases it upon straight up HR data/HR Zone, cal burn, time etc... and adds that to the current load and status in the week. If there is a document from Garmin that can put these things to rest would be great.

I said this earlier, but Garmin really needs to overhaul how metic data is presented and explained to the user base. There needs to be more visual information correlating the workout with all the firstbeat stuff, not just numbers after the fact. Just right there on the watch how THIS RUN (for example) affected your Training Status/Training Load/Vo2max/Lactate Threshold/Training Effect in a visual way...at minimum on the app, and not in the piecemeal way it is now. I think of us here just want to see how the activity itself alone is affecting these numbers right there and then and Garmin isn't giving us that and they should.

0 --Fred-- over 7 years ago

As I have seen the Training Status changes two ways:

-After a recorded activity
-Start of a new day

Good point about the start of the new day, which I suspect is just an old activity (I suspect t - 7 days) "falling off" as the rolling average training load moves forward with time.

It would be interesting if the metrics would be tied together, like a VO2 chart that not only shows values up to today, but also projects an expected VO2 max value 7 days into the future based on the training effect of recent activities, ceteris paribus (i.e. assuming no changes in the next 7 days in terms of sleep/recovery/load vs. the last 7 days).

0 murr_walker over 7 years ago

Training status unproductive solved-----

I guarentee 95% of people with this issue are having it beacuse it is true.....

just because you go for a run or a ride doesnt mean it is productive.....have you ever condiered it is just junk miles?

I had the same thing, i would get de training or maintaining etc and then go for a ride and think sh+t why has that not changed :(

Started the final trainignf or my 1/2 im and smashing some hard cycles & runs....guess what i am now productive.....

so the moral is before you go complaining about your watch, because you dont like what it is telling you, go out and push yourself see what happens!!

enjoy!!

p.s hope no one takes offence!!!!!!!

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

Training status unproductive solved-----

I guarentee 95% of people with this issue are having it beacuse it is true.....

just because you go for a run or a ride doesnt mean it is productive.....have you ever condiered it is just junk miles?

I had the same thing, i would get de training or maintaining etc and then go for a ride and think sh+t why has that not changed :(

Started the final trainignf or my 1/2 im and smashing some hard cycles & runs....guess what i am now productive.....

so the moral is before you go complaining about your watch, because you dont like what it is telling you, go out and push yourself see what happens!!

enjoy!!

p.s hope no one takes offence!!!!!!!

MURR_WALKER -
Thats interesting input. However, as stated many many times in this thread (if you have cared to read it completely) I don't think many of the posts at least this on this thread is about complaining about the watch. If that was all that had to be done, it would have been one line and one post. People don't go through the effort of reading research papers and white papers to try to understand the watch. They believe in it, hence they do all that. I really wish Garmin would make it easier. But thats only a wish, not a complaint.

No offense taken to what you state, but its best not to assume that everyone who writes on this forum is complaining.

Its also great that the watch works for you. But if you belong to that group that have had two months of unproductive workouts (especially those of us who run half marathons) then it poses some questions. Trust me, many of us understand that not all miles are productive. However, to assume that two months of running are all junk, is far fetched. I am glad that you have a working device and its doing what you want to it do.

Have a great day!

CPJ

0 murr_walker over 7 years ago

I could run a half marathon and it be unproductive relative to me....

i take your point but try one run or ride where you absolutely push yourself and see what happens

if you are used to running lots of miles at a give or constant pace then doing a half marathon on top of this is not going to push you and therefore it is still possible for it to be unproductive??

its all about how the watch 'scales' the training inputs to your past 7 days.....

if people cant be bothered to go out and push themselves to test this out then i suggest, take the watch off for 7 days then you 7 days load will be zero, you can then run again at that steady pace and perhaps you should then seem something productive???

would be intersting to try this, and also see if the watch goes to any other states ie recovery or de training?

0 chunkywizard over 7 years ago

For me, 'Unproductive' points to me not recovering correctly after hard efforts. I went from peaking before a 10K race, to unproductive whilst running 40 miles in an 24 Endurance race at the weekend, ending in Overreaching. i don't think a hard effort would have got me back to productive, I think the watch got it right!

CW

0 iustinp over 7 years ago

I can't help with the problems you see, but I wanted to note that my fenix seems to work correctly in this regard: the training status seems to align well with my actual load.

So maybe it is indeed something with your hr monitor? I only run and bike with chest strap.