Training Status - Unproductive

Some Context
I realize that there are multiple threads on this topic already and I have done my best to review all of them.
I have also given the watch 5 weeks of time to calibrate itself.
I have downloaded and read the whitepapers from FirstBeat that discuss and explain VO2max estimation, EPOC development and then how they estimate Training Effect.
I have read a few other white papers as well on this topic. I am not sure I really understand yet how Training Load is calculated.

I have seen the charts in those whitepapers that explain the build up of EPOC and its relationship to % of VO2Max.
Example, a 15 min run at 90% of VO2max can develop a 130 units of EPOC. The same 15 min run at 70% of VO2Max will develop only 45 units of EPOC. Assuming you ended the workout at that point, your Peak EPOC will be those very numbers. I correlated this understanding with my EPOC numbers from prior workouts with a Suunto watch (where Movescount actually tells you the actual EPOC values for the workout, including the peak EPOC reached) and they align.

I have also seen the chart where EPOC and Activity Class are used collectively to predict TE. Example, activity class 6, and Peak EPOC 50 results in a TE of 3.0
This also got me to recognize that Acivity Class played a role in TE determination. I checked on what activity class I had setup in my user profile. I read up on the table (in one of those white papers) that classifies teh activity classes and explains what each of them mean. I picked the one that matched my activity level.

VO2Max from the watch (although mostly unchanged over 5 weeks) seems to be correct and matches up my prior Suunto numbers, as well the 1.5 mile test, and the Rockport test.

I use the bundled HRM chest strap that came with the watch each time I workout.

The issue I am having
Regardless of type of workout, or intensity, I never see any other status on the watch other than "unproductive". This is over 5 weeks.
Here is an example run that I performed yesterday morning (there are several other runs prior to this one, but similar).
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1767866806

Some other info
I am unable to conclude whether the strength workouts or my gym HIIT workouts matter to this discussion, but I have several of those too.
Training Load has been in the green all along (with the exception of a few days when I was traveling and let Load drop to LOW - intentionally did not workout believing that the Load may be the reason that the status isnt changing).

Also want to clarify - I am not complaining nor am I trying to find fault with the watch. I am really only concerned that I may be overdoing the workout in trying to achieve a certain Training Effect (my goal 3.0) atleast 2 times a week. The times I have reached a 3.0, I have felt that it has left me somewhat sore - over and beyond what my trainer used to put me through.
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What am I missing or doing wrong? It cant be that every workout over 5 weeks is unproductive, especially with -
a) Load optimal,
b) Recovery Advisor reading 0 hours before I began my workout,
c) HRMax as detected by the watch being equal to the 208 - (0.7 * age) value.
d) a good RHR
e) adequate sleep as measured by the watch 24/7 for 3 weeks
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I don't know of a way to get my Peak EPOC value for a workout from the FIT file. It may help me if I knew that number because i could use that as an indicator. The only way I am able to estimate my EPOC is from the chart in the white paper by using time and the "% of VO2Max" I am running at. I am thinking that the EPOC number on the vertical axis will represent peak EPOC reached, i.e. 50 units for a 15 min run at 70% VO2max.

Your help will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

CPJ

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0 gjmachete over 7 years ago

I was stuck on unproductive for a few weeks whether I was running easy or hard. I then realized that my max heart was not being automatically updated. As a result, my max heart rate was set too low (by about 15 BPM). After adjusting my max heart rate to the correct number, the watch began to accurately read my fitness level and moved to productive. This may seem obvious to some (it was not to me initially).

0 2goBeyond over 7 years ago

Well I'm in the optimal range right now (on the chart from GCM).... Still unproductive, and on the rise. I swear every single workout I do, from running to HIIT training and everywhere in between, they are all leaving me in unproductive. And don't give me that it means I'm in good health but I'm over training and not giving myself to recover.... I just had a week to recover and I'm in unproductive.

The narrative the watch is telling me is that I should not exercise because excerise is ruining my fitness. Perhaps I should just go eat corn chips, drink mountain dew and do zero excerise...

That was a joke, but seriously the status and load are broken.

0 Armughan over 7 years ago

So interesting data point: ran a 5K in NYC today by the west side hwy ... had woken up with status at Recovery, RHR was low, was feeling great. Interestingly, I did not notice but watch had not locked in GPS for the first mile and I did NOT get the usual 0.5 mile ~6min Training Status alert that I usually do. Watch picked GPS lock at ~1mile and almost immediately I get the performance notification -3 since I guess some cardiac drift had started by then. And sure enough at the end of the day it was an Unproductive run and decremented by VO2Max by 1 to 51.

Also interestingly I have Strava connected with Garmin connect and the 5K showed up as 2.2 miles on Strava leading me to believe Strava is only giving "credit" for the GPS run (Garmin connect still has the 5K distance correctly).

Thoughts?

0 Former Member over 7 years ago

I also have seen in the last 2 weeks my share of "unproductive" as my VO2 max numbers have lowered from 47 to 45 despite load remaining optimal. I chalk it up to sudden increases in the humidity and temperatures on my runs causing my pace to slow by 30-40 seconds a mile and my heart rate to be higher even with the slower paces. The watch doesn't know the humidity / temp and perhaps it sees me slower despite increased heart effort and thinks my training has obviously been unproductive despite the real environmental reasons?

0 BiljanaK over 7 years ago

I also have seen in the last 2 weeks my share of "unproductive" as my VO2 max numbers have lowered from 47 to 45 despite load remaining optimal. I chalk it up to sudden increases in the humidity and temperatures on my runs causing my pace to slow by 30-40 seconds a mile and my heart rate to be higher even with the slower paces. The watch doesn't know the humidity / temp and perhaps it sees me slower despite increased heart effort and thinks my training has obviously been unproductive despite the real environmental reasons?

I second that. All my runs in last few weeks have been unproductive because of high temperatures and high humidity (I usually run at 9 or 10 pm, but temperature is high even then, it is about 28 C/82 F and humidity is above 60-70%).. In the reality, I'm faster now than few weeks before (when it was much colder outside) and I can run longer than before and my heart rate is the same or lower than when I ran at lower temperatures .. but according to Garmin, all that is unproductive... sure it is ;) I can also surely predict that all my runs in autumn and winter will be higly productive.. ;)

Also, I don't understand why Garmin doesn't calculate temperature into their productive/unproductive training algorithm.. after all, the watch has temperature sensor..

0 PubBike over 7 years ago

I don't understand why Garmin doesn't calculate temperature into their productive/unproductive training algorithm.. after all, the watch has temperature sensor..

That is because the internal sensor is only useful for calibrating the other sensors, and does not represent the outside temperature. You need a tempe for that. The internal sensor is affected by the wearer's body heat as well as the work the CPU is doing in the watch.

0 BiljanaK over 7 years ago

That is because the internal sensor is only useful for calibrating the other sensors, and does not represent the outside temperature. You need a tempe for that. The internal sensor is affected by the wearer's body heat as well as the work the CPU is doing in the watch.

I supposed that internal sensor is affected by those things... but I don't have tempe so I'm just asking out of curiosity. If I buy tempe, would Garmin calculate outside temperature into algorithm for my runs? It's not expensive, so I'm looking at it as an option, because where I live, there are 4-5 months of high humidity and very high temperatures... this evening I ran 4 kilometres and of course my run is unproductive because of high temperature...

0 Jur1nator over 7 years ago

I supposed that internal sensor is affected by those things... but I don't have tempe so I'm just asking out of curiosity. If I buy tempe, would Garmin calculate outside temperature into algorithm for my runs? It's not expensive, so I'm looking at it as an option, because where I live, there are 4-5 months of high humidity and very high temperatures... this evening I ran 4 kilometres and of course my run is unproductive because of high temperature...

I highly doubt that Garmin includes temperature for their calculations. (the in the watch included Temp Sensor would always read to high temperatures, because of the direct skin contact, anyways(its more meant for barometer calculations)) Even if using Tempe, where would you draw the line? Vo2max is a very objectively calculable figure, but temperature affects different people in different ways. Someone growing up in tropical temperatures, for example 30°C/ 86°F + might have no problems at all, and actually might decrease his capability's by working out in 10°C/50°F which might be fine for others. That`s why its also most important to give your body time to acclimate if you have a race planned in a a different country.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

I have an update on the UnProductive status issue.

About 7 days ago, I changed the chest strap for a new one - and since then I have had the status change more than once. The Load numbers are more accurate. i have compared them with FirstBeat. The VO2max number is more consistent. The TE numbers are closer to the chart.

Note that I did reset the watch around the same time. So I am not sure which one made the difference. I will keep you updated on how this progresses. But its about 7 days now and I think its been more accurate.

CPJ

0 Former Member over 5 years ago in reply to firstinflight

I too am experiencing the same problem and I really don't understand why. I find it incredibly demotivating to find that I do a regular running routine. 2x9 mile and 1x15 miles per week and for an entire month it can be unproductive. I get no idea what it is that's causing this and it affects my motivation. Garmin need to give a clearer indication of what is causing the unproductive status. The current statement tells us nothing.