Training Status - Unproductive

Some Context
I realize that there are multiple threads on this topic already and I have done my best to review all of them.
I have also given the watch 5 weeks of time to calibrate itself.
I have downloaded and read the whitepapers from FirstBeat that discuss and explain VO2max estimation, EPOC development and then how they estimate Training Effect.
I have read a few other white papers as well on this topic. I am not sure I really understand yet how Training Load is calculated.

I have seen the charts in those whitepapers that explain the build up of EPOC and its relationship to % of VO2Max.
Example, a 15 min run at 90% of VO2max can develop a 130 units of EPOC. The same 15 min run at 70% of VO2Max will develop only 45 units of EPOC. Assuming you ended the workout at that point, your Peak EPOC will be those very numbers. I correlated this understanding with my EPOC numbers from prior workouts with a Suunto watch (where Movescount actually tells you the actual EPOC values for the workout, including the peak EPOC reached) and they align.

I have also seen the chart where EPOC and Activity Class are used collectively to predict TE. Example, activity class 6, and Peak EPOC 50 results in a TE of 3.0
This also got me to recognize that Acivity Class played a role in TE determination. I checked on what activity class I had setup in my user profile. I read up on the table (in one of those white papers) that classifies teh activity classes and explains what each of them mean. I picked the one that matched my activity level.

VO2Max from the watch (although mostly unchanged over 5 weeks) seems to be correct and matches up my prior Suunto numbers, as well the 1.5 mile test, and the Rockport test.

I use the bundled HRM chest strap that came with the watch each time I workout.

The issue I am having
Regardless of type of workout, or intensity, I never see any other status on the watch other than "unproductive". This is over 5 weeks.
Here is an example run that I performed yesterday morning (there are several other runs prior to this one, but similar).
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1767866806

Some other info
I am unable to conclude whether the strength workouts or my gym HIIT workouts matter to this discussion, but I have several of those too.
Training Load has been in the green all along (with the exception of a few days when I was traveling and let Load drop to LOW - intentionally did not workout believing that the Load may be the reason that the status isnt changing).

Also want to clarify - I am not complaining nor am I trying to find fault with the watch. I am really only concerned that I may be overdoing the workout in trying to achieve a certain Training Effect (my goal 3.0) atleast 2 times a week. The times I have reached a 3.0, I have felt that it has left me somewhat sore - over and beyond what my trainer used to put me through.
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What am I missing or doing wrong? It cant be that every workout over 5 weeks is unproductive, especially with -
a) Load optimal,
b) Recovery Advisor reading 0 hours before I began my workout,
c) HRMax as detected by the watch being equal to the 208 - (0.7 * age) value.
d) a good RHR
e) adequate sleep as measured by the watch 24/7 for 3 weeks
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I don't know of a way to get my Peak EPOC value for a workout from the FIT file. It may help me if I knew that number because i could use that as an indicator. The only way I am able to estimate my EPOC is from the chart in the white paper by using time and the "% of VO2Max" I am running at. I am thinking that the EPOC number on the vertical axis will represent peak EPOC reached, i.e. 50 units for a 15 min run at 70% VO2max.

Your help will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

CPJ

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0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

One more run, no change to status. 5th week now.

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One other observation...issues with predictability has been discussed enough but repeatability is not a trait of this watch either... at least not the one I have.

Even running the same exact sequence twice (down to the minute) produces results that are wide and varied. And I totally get that no two days are the same given all the other factors - nutrition, rest etc. However when I get TE 3.0 one day (40 mins) and the next time I run the exact same sequence and I get TE 2.1, I don't know how to interpret that.

Then today morning I run at 90%-95% of my LTHR (given the advice from this thread to use LTHR instead of HRmax) for 90 mins , and I get a TE 2.3.
Felt that run was far too easy. As you can see below, 20 mins spent warming up, 15 minutes at 75% of LTHR, then 90% LTHR for the rest of the run.

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Now I am beginning to wonder if there is an issue in my watch or my chest strap. When I export the FIT file to Runalyze, the VO2max (read from the FIT file, not the one calculated by Runalyze) and the VO2max on my watch are totally different. That shouldnt be. Its the FIT file from the workout.
The watch now tells me that I am in poor condition.

Perf Condition doesnt show till 35 minutes into the workout and then begins at -13, quickly degrades to -20 and here I am feeling great, not even breathing heavily and could go on forever.

Overall, for 5 weeks now, relying on the watch has led to reducing (a) the intensity of my workouts, (b) the frequency of my workouts, and then also feeling literally "unproductive" about working out at all. :-)

I often wonder how much time has been spent validating the watch rather than relying on it.

0 2goBeyond over 7 years ago

Snip.

The correlation with the numbers are what are driving me crazy. So on sunday (a complete rest day, in fact both sat and sun are rest days, with sat being a recorded Stretch routine), my status was unproductive and had been since wednesday of that week (I ran a10k). My load went from the mid 700's on friday to 691 for both Sat and Sun. This morning, the load was down to 595 and the status was still unproductive (and I was at 0 recovery time). Stress test had me at 26 (low stress) and went for a 5k run. I come back status says I am maintaining now but the load is now 728... The TE 3.7 aerobic/ 2.1 Anaerobic. Here's the killer, the watch is telling me I am improving my vo2max yet the watch says I am at 45 (and hasn't moved in weeks) on the website though, it says it's 46! Runalyze and golden cheetah BOTH have me at 52. And let me tell you too, this was a hard fast run, like z5 for 18mins (over 100% my LTHR) and the LTH didn't budge either.

Look, I think all of us are pointing at the same problem: We are getting back these numbers and Garmin does very little to correlate them. Sure there are charts and you can overlay them, but how is that really explaining anything? Couldn't they at least for the workout/run/cycling/etc.. tell you what and how each of these things are interdependent? For example:

Hey you ran at 90% of your LTHR for 12mins and over you max for 15mins, this influenced your vo2max like this (see chart) but your lactic threshold did not change since (see information), also your training load changed to this because of the (insert workout and Training effect) and the status to that? We recommend you rest for this long.

It's so piecemeal right now, and without any reliant data in the moment that a lot of us are just either confused/irritated or just ignoring a feature meant to help you train better (on a $600-700 training sportwatch as well!) Not only that, but i'm getting contradictory information from different sources within the family of products!

*Update...so I thought i'd just go for a walk tonight, did another 3.5 mile walk (avg spd 4.0) in under an hour. Load is now 748, status: Productive.

I give up.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

Is this useful?

http://www.garmin.com/en-GB/learning-center/forerunner935

Thanks for sharing. Yes, I have watched those. Garmin Cust Service also sent me those videos. I understand and like those concepts. However, I am having a very hard time believing that EVERY workout over 4 weeks has been unproductive. If it had changed even once, I would think that perhaps I am doing something wrong.

My VO2max has dropped with every workout for 4 weeks (and that I think is the reason for the unproductive status). I find that hard to understand. I do know from reading the manual that VO2max increasing is one of the requirements for a productive workout.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

In addition, there are many posts that state that if a run/workout clocked TE 3.0 or higher, then status would go to "Productive". That is not correct. I have several of my workouts with a TE greater than 3.0. But I have never seen a training status change.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

At some point it becomes the question of whether one should ignore some of these issues as temporary shortcomings, and use it for other things that work.
OR
Does it make every other number that the watch produces unreliable as well.

I have to say that having something like the perf cond indicator come up in the middle of a early morning fun run and indicate that my condition is rapidly going downhill (even though I am feeling great running) does take its toll on the mind. Hard to ignore something that is flashing on the watch. I know i can turn it off and maybe I should. For the money the sapphire edition costs, I feel that we shouldn't have to be turning things off.

0 Crewone over 7 years ago

The question is what you expect from a piece of software.

Do you expect it to realisticly model the fitness of every individual who wears said piece of technology, based on OHR readings and a few given metrics?
The amount of variation between individuals is enormous and I'd say it is impossible to even properly model the fitness of one single individual.

Also, bear in mind the "unproductive" relates to improving vo2max. So if the watch measures a decline in vo2max, it decides it's unproductive. But your sessions might be aimed at speed, strength of whatever that the watch doesn't know about.

In the end the watch doesn't decide if it was a productive workout, you do.

0 milesgilmour over 7 years ago

Also, bear in mind the "unproductive" relates to improving vo2max. So if the watch measures a decline in vo2max, it decides it's unproductive. But your sessions might be aimed at speed, strength of whatever that the watch doesn't know about.

I think this is the key takeaway here - it doesn't matter how many hours of training you put in, if the watch isn't seeing improvements in the metrics it measures you are not going to see a "productive" training status.

From reading this thread so far I think that firstinflight might be "suffering" from starting from a high level of fitness - so any improvements are hard to come by. Some people can probably do two twenty min runs a week and get a productive status showing quickly because they are starting from a low base.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

The question is what you expect from a piece of software.

Do you expect it to realistically model the fitness of every individual who wears said piece of technology, based on OHR readings and a few given metrics?
The amount of variation between individuals is enormous and I'd say it is impossible to even properly model the fitness of one single individual.

Also, bear in mind the "unproductive" relates to improving vo2max. So if the watch measures a decline in vo2max, it decides it's unproductive. But your sessions might be aimed at speed, strength of whatever that the watch doesn't know about.

In the end the watch doesn't decide if it was a productive workout, you do.

You are absolutely correct about the connection between VO2max and the status.

However I respectfully disagree with your first point. Indeed its possible to realistically model fitness - not only possible, it has been done and it only gets better with time. Some of the early research dates back to 1910. Indeed, the operative term is 'model'. They are, and will remain, models.There is variation between individuals and yes, its rarely possible to bring it to exact numbers. However, if you scroll through this thread you will see how closely this watch models individual behavior based on prior studies and data models.

If you read through this thread fully, you will also see that none of the discussion here is about OHR. It about using a chest strap. In addition, its not about a "few given metrics", they are very relevant metrics.

I am not sure your point about the watch not knowing the session's intent. That's what i have been researching and asking on this forum as well. Some say it accounts for everything, others dont think so.

Garmin support videos state that if you wore the watch on every workout (of any type) it will take all of it into account. As you indicate, that perhaps isnt true. But there is an activity type for most things on the watch. It leads one to assume that they are accounted for.

... and in the end if I have decide to ignore everything the watch produces as data and I decide whether the workout was productive, why have the watch?? I am not sure how to even react to that comment. Why have a dashboard if you have to ignore whats on it? Its like saying ignore the speedometer, ignore the fuel and temperature gauge, ignore all indications on the dashboard and drive by feel.

This device is meant to help train. I totally accept that I may be still short on understanding how it works, but it certainly cant be that for 5 weeks every workout is unproductive.
At 800+ dollars, that isn't very useful.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

I think this is the key takeaway here - it doesn't matter how many hours of training you put in, if the watch isn't seeing improvements in the metrics it measures you are not going to see a "productive" training status.

From reading this thread so far I think that firstinflight might be "suffering" from starting from a high level of fitness - so any improvements are hard to come by. Some people can probably do two twenty min runs a week and get a productive status showing quickly because they are starting from a low base.

milesgilmour -
Your comment is the conclusion I came to yesterday.
Although when I downloaded FirstBeat software and plugged in the FIT files, I noticed that the data showing on the watch and on FirstBeat software were not the same. So there was something else glitchy as well.

Overall, I am in the good range of VO2max for my age (Rockport test, 1.5 walk/run test, and then from my Suunto watch number; based Cooper Institute ref charts).

Hence, as you say, improvements are harder to come by and most days I may actually be going down a notch when watch is still calibrating in its first 4-5 weeks. It enough for the Status indicator to say unproductive because that's what it considers to be the primary indicator of fitness progress.

Your observation, I think, is spot on.

0 --Fred-- over 7 years ago

Firstbeat specifies 95% accuracy. For me (VO2 max tested by metabolic cart at 61) this means +/- between 58 - 64.
Mostly the Fenix 5 gives me values between 62 and 64 so within range, occasionally 65 (usually after recovery paced runs during relatively cool weather).
If only Garmin/Firstbeat could factor in significant temperature changes a bit better (which affects heart rate at given speed). Too often a change from cool to hot weather triggers "productive" to "maintaining" or "unproductive" and vice versa.

What needs most improvement imo is the recommended recovery time: After a tough run or bike ride it's often something like 48 hours. If I add a short recovery run later in the same day, it often slashes the value to 1/3 or less. It seems to forget the previous workout.