Training Status - Unproductive

Some Context
I realize that there are multiple threads on this topic already and I have done my best to review all of them.
I have also given the watch 5 weeks of time to calibrate itself.
I have downloaded and read the whitepapers from FirstBeat that discuss and explain VO2max estimation, EPOC development and then how they estimate Training Effect.
I have read a few other white papers as well on this topic. I am not sure I really understand yet how Training Load is calculated.

I have seen the charts in those whitepapers that explain the build up of EPOC and its relationship to % of VO2Max.
Example, a 15 min run at 90% of VO2max can develop a 130 units of EPOC. The same 15 min run at 70% of VO2Max will develop only 45 units of EPOC. Assuming you ended the workout at that point, your Peak EPOC will be those very numbers. I correlated this understanding with my EPOC numbers from prior workouts with a Suunto watch (where Movescount actually tells you the actual EPOC values for the workout, including the peak EPOC reached) and they align.

I have also seen the chart where EPOC and Activity Class are used collectively to predict TE. Example, activity class 6, and Peak EPOC 50 results in a TE of 3.0
This also got me to recognize that Acivity Class played a role in TE determination. I checked on what activity class I had setup in my user profile. I read up on the table (in one of those white papers) that classifies teh activity classes and explains what each of them mean. I picked the one that matched my activity level.

VO2Max from the watch (although mostly unchanged over 5 weeks) seems to be correct and matches up my prior Suunto numbers, as well the 1.5 mile test, and the Rockport test.

I use the bundled HRM chest strap that came with the watch each time I workout.

The issue I am having
Regardless of type of workout, or intensity, I never see any other status on the watch other than "unproductive". This is over 5 weeks.
Here is an example run that I performed yesterday morning (there are several other runs prior to this one, but similar).
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1767866806

Some other info
I am unable to conclude whether the strength workouts or my gym HIIT workouts matter to this discussion, but I have several of those too.
Training Load has been in the green all along (with the exception of a few days when I was traveling and let Load drop to LOW - intentionally did not workout believing that the Load may be the reason that the status isnt changing).

Also want to clarify - I am not complaining nor am I trying to find fault with the watch. I am really only concerned that I may be overdoing the workout in trying to achieve a certain Training Effect (my goal 3.0) atleast 2 times a week. The times I have reached a 3.0, I have felt that it has left me somewhat sore - over and beyond what my trainer used to put me through.
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What am I missing or doing wrong? It cant be that every workout over 5 weeks is unproductive, especially with -
a) Load optimal,
b) Recovery Advisor reading 0 hours before I began my workout,
c) HRMax as detected by the watch being equal to the 208 - (0.7 * age) value.
d) a good RHR
e) adequate sleep as measured by the watch 24/7 for 3 weeks
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I don't know of a way to get my Peak EPOC value for a workout from the FIT file. It may help me if I knew that number because i could use that as an indicator. The only way I am able to estimate my EPOC is from the chart in the white paper by using time and the "% of VO2Max" I am running at. I am thinking that the EPOC number on the vertical axis will represent peak EPOC reached, i.e. 50 units for a 15 min run at 70% VO2max.

Your help will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

CPJ

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0 chunkywizard over 7 years ago

I too noticed this. I am curious now as to what would have been reported if I had stopped when my perf cond began to degrade. Is perf cond expected to remain at one number for all of the workout? I think its bound to degrade as the workout progress, wont it?

No not necessarily. I have runs where it stays constant or even goes up at the end of the run

CW

0 milesgilmour over 7 years ago

I too noticed this. I am curious now as to what would have been reported if I had stopped when my perf cond began to degrade. Is perf cond expected to remain at one number for all of the workout? I think its bound to degrade as the workout progress, wont it?

No, performance condition is a comparison of your current performance (pace, HR, HRV) vs your average:

http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/fenix5/EN-US/GUID-901ACCFC-FB0D-414E-B80C-54970AF4E357.html

If you have genuinely become fitter and are fully rested, you could expect to see positive performance condition across the duration of your activity.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

Thought I would share an observation from this morning.

After the run three days prior (the day I posted the analysis), my Training Load had gone up to 393 (as indicated at the end of that post).
Then I rested for a full day (day 1) and the following day evening (day 2, yesterday) I did a recovery jog (30 mins) at very low HR - TE 1.4.
Prior to the jog, my Training Load had dropped to 334 (from 393). Recovery advisor was 0 hours. HRV score - Low.
After the jog, my Training Load went from 334 to 354. The needle was within Green.
I wake up today morning and the number has remained at 354 - but the needle is now showing Red (the label indicates High below).

I don't understand this. Just 12 hours ago, after my jog, the number was 354, the needle was in green. I wake up this morning, the number hasnt changed but it now shows Red and says High.

Any reason on why or how to interpret this?

CPJ

0 ThiagoSian over 7 years ago

After the jog, my Training Load went from 334 to 354. The needle was within Green.
I wake up today morning and the number has remained at 354 - but the needle is now showing Red (the label indicates High below).

I don't understand this. Just 12 hours ago, after my jog, the number was 354, the needle was in green. I wake up this morning, the number hasnt changed but it now shows Red and says High.

Any reason on why or how to interpret this?

CPJ

I guess it is based on last 7 days, so kinda makes sense it changes.

But you should not trust 100% on that. I am increasing my milage by 10% per week and it says that I am peaking (increasing fitness, decreasing load), doesn't make any sense.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

I have read all very ambitious comments here of the fenix watch and the training effect etc.
My own 935 has the same functionality as the fenix watches and one thing that strikes me when I read so many well written comments is;

Garmin has failed with the purpose of this excellent tracking and analysis tool.

I presume many have good education and understanding of the tools, but I'm appalled that for myself with double master degrees, one in engineering and an MBA, can't get a good and holistic view of how to train based on this information and I'm used to juggle with extreme equations and numbers. The purpose of all numbers and diagrams is not Lear and how I can use it. Of course I understand that a training effect at 3 is good, but when the each then says I'm unproductive despite having struggled to run my daily round.

It is useless and stressful to have a tool that tells me I am Unproductive in my training.
Training should be fun and not an exercise in reading diagrams, setting max pulse levels and messing around doing in different suppliers software and pay a fortune for using it.

I have setup workouts which is for my triathlon but I don't get any advice like "you need to train more with hills as you last part of the running is showing unproductive". That's what any person can see if you look at the curves. But when I read all comments on here I'm surprised that the person who stared this thread and who has spent ample of time cannot get an insight in what is going on with his training and adjust.
I feel the same. I'm lost in numbers despite heavy number crunching capacity.

If a TE is 2.0 and my cycling cadence is too slow the watch could recommend you to do intervals, go for a 100km cycle ride or whatever.
Or when I swim I never get higher than training effect 2 so the watch should tell me, you are training with too low speed and too short distances, go for long swims with SWOLF 8 per length.

The watch can help you understand this if this is applied.

I find it fantastic with all ambitious people looking into these numbers, but this is not why I bought my watch to become a geek and spend hours in addition to my training. I'm above 50 and can not become an Olympic athlete any longer. I want to train and be recommended what to do. That's what is possible with all these numbers.

Finally I still want to stress that I love my Garmin 935. It's as close to love for a "thing" I can come, but I want to have fun with it, not become a geek and take time away from my family trying understanding it. Garmin has a big job to do here.

I cannot agree with you more. It should never require this much analysis.
I am doing it because, like many others on this forum, I really like the watch. I am doing my best to understand how to use it well. I really wish it would just provide you more insight and guidance.

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

I think I found the answer to my question about why the training load number was looking optimal 12 hours prior and then the next morning turned Red (high).

See the image below.
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You can see how the watch decremented the green band in the background (look hard at the right end of the chart, you will notice the band dipping downwards beginning today).

Hence my training load (354) was within the green band yesterday evening after the workout, but this morning the same 354 looked high (Red) because the watch shifted the optimal range itself lower.

At some point all this will become all too hard to figure out or keep track off, let alone rely on.

CPJ

0 thigger over 7 years ago

Out of interest what kind of range are people getting as their "optimal"? Mine seems to be about 500-1000 - when I dropped near the 500 it shifted down a band, but came back up the following day when I brought it back into the 900s. I've not managed to shift it higher despite running it 950-1050 all week (but that's probably a good idea as there were quite a few hard sessions there!)

0 firstinflight over 7 years ago

I think I found the answer to my question about why the training load number was looking optimal 12 hours prior and then the next morning turned Red (high).

See the image below.
" />">

You can see how the watch decremented the green band in the background (look hard at the right end of the chart, you will notice the band dipping downwards beginning today).

Hence my training load (354) was within the green band yesterday evening after the workout, but this morning the same 354 looked high (Red) because the watch shifted the optimal range itself lower.

At some point all this will become all too hard to figure out or keep track off, let alone rely on.

CPJ

12 hours later... the Training Load falls off by nearly 165 units - from 354 (from my post yesterday) 190 this morning.

See image below.
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I don't understand how a 7-day moving AVERAGE can be moving up and down this much, especially given that workouts have been only spaced out by a day at a time. Yesterday, the number remained the same the the optimal band itself moved downwards. Today the number drops off by ~165 units.

0 2goBeyond over 7 years ago

12 hours later... the Training Load falls off by nearly 165 units - from 354 (from my post yesterday) 190 this morning.

See image below.
" />">

I don't understand how a 7-day moving AVERAGE can be moving up and down this much, especially given that workouts have been only spaced out by a day at a time. Yesterday, the number remained the same the the optimal band itself moved downwards. Today the number drops off by ~165 units.

Well, I can tell you I started last week in RECOVERY (load was 353) ran a 5k and was at MAINTAINING (load 446). on Weds ran a 10k and hit load 662 and went into UNPRODUCTIVE for the rest of the week (on friday the load was724) and is still at that. Not only that, but the load fell to 691 on sat and is still the same today on Sunday. Took a HRV stress this morning (after a cup of coffee)....had a score of 8 (low stress). I did it with my HRM-Tri but I might take it again with my Wahoo Tickrx.

0 mcalista over 7 years ago

I too noticed this. I am curious now as to what would have been reported if I had stopped when my perf cond began to degrade. Is perf cond expected to remain at one number for all of the workout? I think its bound to degrade as the workout progress, wont it?

Perf Cond can be expected to be quite high at the start of a run due to cardio drift. After about 10 minutes, it should settle to a sustainable level. Towards the end of a longer run, you can expect to see it drop as you become fatigued. But the drop in your Perf Cond seems larger than might be expected.