Training Status - Unproductive

Some Context
I realize that there are multiple threads on this topic already and I have done my best to review all of them.
I have also given the watch 5 weeks of time to calibrate itself.
I have downloaded and read the whitepapers from FirstBeat that discuss and explain VO2max estimation, EPOC development and then how they estimate Training Effect.
I have read a few other white papers as well on this topic. I am not sure I really understand yet how Training Load is calculated.

I have seen the charts in those whitepapers that explain the build up of EPOC and its relationship to % of VO2Max.
Example, a 15 min run at 90% of VO2max can develop a 130 units of EPOC. The same 15 min run at 70% of VO2Max will develop only 45 units of EPOC. Assuming you ended the workout at that point, your Peak EPOC will be those very numbers. I correlated this understanding with my EPOC numbers from prior workouts with a Suunto watch (where Movescount actually tells you the actual EPOC values for the workout, including the peak EPOC reached) and they align.

I have also seen the chart where EPOC and Activity Class are used collectively to predict TE. Example, activity class 6, and Peak EPOC 50 results in a TE of 3.0
This also got me to recognize that Acivity Class played a role in TE determination. I checked on what activity class I had setup in my user profile. I read up on the table (in one of those white papers) that classifies teh activity classes and explains what each of them mean. I picked the one that matched my activity level.

VO2Max from the watch (although mostly unchanged over 5 weeks) seems to be correct and matches up my prior Suunto numbers, as well the 1.5 mile test, and the Rockport test.

I use the bundled HRM chest strap that came with the watch each time I workout.

The issue I am having
Regardless of type of workout, or intensity, I never see any other status on the watch other than "unproductive". This is over 5 weeks.
Here is an example run that I performed yesterday morning (there are several other runs prior to this one, but similar).
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1767866806

Some other info
I am unable to conclude whether the strength workouts or my gym HIIT workouts matter to this discussion, but I have several of those too.
Training Load has been in the green all along (with the exception of a few days when I was traveling and let Load drop to LOW - intentionally did not workout believing that the Load may be the reason that the status isnt changing).

Also want to clarify - I am not complaining nor am I trying to find fault with the watch. I am really only concerned that I may be overdoing the workout in trying to achieve a certain Training Effect (my goal 3.0) atleast 2 times a week. The times I have reached a 3.0, I have felt that it has left me somewhat sore - over and beyond what my trainer used to put me through.
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What am I missing or doing wrong? It cant be that every workout over 5 weeks is unproductive, especially with -
a) Load optimal,
b) Recovery Advisor reading 0 hours before I began my workout,
c) HRMax as detected by the watch being equal to the 208 - (0.7 * age) value.
d) a good RHR
e) adequate sleep as measured by the watch 24/7 for 3 weeks
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I don't know of a way to get my Peak EPOC value for a workout from the FIT file. It may help me if I knew that number because i could use that as an indicator. The only way I am able to estimate my EPOC is from the chart in the white paper by using time and the "% of VO2Max" I am running at. I am thinking that the EPOC number on the vertical axis will represent peak EPOC reached, i.e. 50 units for a 15 min run at 70% VO2max.

Your help will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

CPJ
  • EPOC, VO2Max , TE and HR - Part 2

    Continuing from prior post (Part 1)...
    ---------------------------------------
    Results:
    Reiterating the goals -
    Time period 3 – Goal TE 2.3 (22 mins, approx)
    Time period 4 – Goal TE 3.0 (34 mins, approx)

    My results from the watch –
    Time period 3 – TE 2.2 (25 mins)

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    Time period 4 – TE 3.0 (40 mins)

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    --------------
    Training Load…
    My TL went from 307 to 393 (it is still within the green band) after this run. As I mentioned in my post yesterday, I don’t understand that well enough to validate it. I don’t know if it is merely adding up the peak EPOC generated per workout – which in this case then should be around 60-65 units.
    393-307 = 86 units – which is not very far from 65 units for 34-35 minutes from chart 2 and chart 3 above.
    --------------
    Vo2max – remained flat.
    --------------
    Performance Condition - Since I ran this on a track at the gym, I didn’t get any performance condition notifications (it requires GPS is what Garmin told me).
    --------------
    Training Status
    My training status remained “unproductive”, however. I feel that if I followed the above model for my workouts, with time, the Training Status indicator will begin to calibrate correctly.
    -------------
    One of the sources of discrepancy here may be the HRmax I am using (as was pointed out to me in this thread). However, the watch detected HRmax tallies with the value achieved during HIIT training with my trainer; and the two HRmax formulas used generally. Hence I am apt to believe that it is very close if not exact.

    --------------------
    If nothing else, all this reading gave me insight into EPOC, Vo2max, TE and correlation to HR. It also gave me a better understanding as to how the watch works.
    I was a little surprised by how good I felt after this run.
    I was also surprised that I generated a TE of 3.0 without feeling a thing, whereas I was exhausted trying to achieve the same on 3 days prior (the run that I posted for your reference when I initiated this thread).

    Many of you are perhaps are far more experienced runners than I am and the work above may not at all be valuable to most of you. Once again, my intent is not to validate the watch as much as it is to validate my understanding of how it works. Lastly, I write this post believing there may be others who may benefit from my experience.

    Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

    [All Charts are the property and work of the original authors. I claim no authorship of those works. I am using them from Firstbeat whitepapers so as to explain my study]

    CPJ
  • If nothing else, all this reading gave me insight into EPOC, Vo2max, TE and correlation to HR. It also gave me a better understanding as to how the watch works.
    I was a little surprised by how good I felt after this run.
    I was also surprised that I generated a TE of 3.0 without feeling a thing, whereas I was exhausted trying to achieve the same on 3 days prior (the run that I posted for your reference when I initiated this thread).

    Many of you are perhaps are far more experienced runners than I am and the work above may not at all be valuable to most of you. Once again, my intent is not to validate the watch as much as it is to validate my understanding of how it works. Lastly, I write this post believing there may be others who may benefit from my experience.

    Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

    [All Charts are the property and work of the original authors. I claim no authorship of those works. I am using them from Firstbeat whitepapers so as to explain my study]

    CPJ

    This video might interest you. It explains why you should run easy. If you liked it, theres a playlist here.

    For MaxHR, if you are going to use it for training, "close enough" still unrealistic. You will be better using your LTHR intease.
  • This video might interest you. It explains why you should run easy. If you liked it, theres a playlist here.

    For MaxHR, if you are going to use it for training, "close enough" still unrealistic. You will be better using your LTHR intease.


    Will watch the video. Thanks for sharing.
    As for MaxHR, I will set my targets to map to LTHR. I guess I first have to perform the lactate threshold test on my watch.

    CPJ
  • Fascinating stuff. I wasn't sure you'd be able to replicate the white-paper results so it's reassuring that you were able to.
    From another thread we know that the training load is based on the formula below for the last 7 days exercise
    Garmin EPOC (GEPOCTm) = (AV HR * Total Time + TRIMP + EPOC peak) / 3
    So I think you'd be able to sense check the movement in your training load using that. I think you didn't have TRIMP in your data below but you could either work it out with the Firstbeat white paper information or you can load your fit file into Runalyze.com and it'll give you that information.
  • you could either work it out with the Firstbeat white paper information or you can load your fit file into Runalyze.com and it'll give you that information.


    Or use this data field.
  • If you really want to delve into all the stats and science you'd need to sign up and use Firstbeat Sports software which is free to trial for 10 days and then super expensive.

    Without seeing all your activity it's hard to make any definitive statement, but Garmin classes an Unproductive status as "Your training load is at a good level but your fitness is decreasing" and then goes on to explain that this is likely because you may be struggling to get enough rest and recovery.

    What does the recovery advisor say after your exercise, and are you following that?
    Another thing you could try if you have a chest strap is to do the HRV Test before each activity and gauge your "Stress Level". If this is really high (I think it takes a few readings before it starts giving anything other than 0 stress) then that would also indicate you need to rest and that any training you do will be unproductive.

    Hope this helps!


    Will look into Firstbeat's software over the weekend. I totally understand that by just seeing only one run it is had to provide any guidance. As for your question on Recovery Advisor, it has always gone down to 0 hours before I have started any workout. I havent done an HRV test each time prior to workout. I will do that going forward and make a note of what it shows. Thanks for your help.

    CPJ
  • This run looks really unproductive.

    High heart rate at low speed. The average is low because of the walk in the beginning (Why record the walk as a run?).

    You did stoped 2 times? Try enabling auto pause, or pause it yourself. It does affect the results, I guess.

    Also, avoid using Math Max HR. Use Lab Tested Max HR or use your LTHR.

    And first off all, You should try building and aerobic base first (Pass some time on Z2).


    I enabled Auto Pause, will work of LTHR instead of HRmax and will focus on slow runs for some time.

    CPJ
  • One of the things that I noticed in your posted run is a quite significant drop-off in your performance condition towards the end of your run. I am wondering whether the software is seeing this this fatigue, and interpreting it as overtraining and therefore unproductive?

    It is also worth noting that while Suunto presents a single TE number, Garmin breaks this down into an Aerobic and an Anaerobic TE, so the numbers won't be directly comparable between the Suunto and Garmin universes.

    Another issue is that autodetect may be leading your watch into underestimating your Max HR, and therefore it may think you are working out harder than you actually are. Very few people hit their max HR's because a. it hurts, and b. it's not particularly effective training. If you know your true MaxHR, enter that. Otherwise you may want to do a self-administered MaxHR test - you only need to do this once, and you are then good to go for a couple of years.


    I too noticed this. I am curious now as to what would have been reported if I had stopped when my perf cond began to degrade. Is perf cond expected to remain at one number for all of the workout? I think its bound to degrade as the workout progress, wont it?
  • Or use this data field.


    Thanks, will load it this evening.
  • Fascinating stuff. I wasn't sure you'd be able to replicate the white-paper results so it's reassuring that you were able to.
    From another thread we know that the training load is based on the formula below for the last 7 days exercise
    Garmin EPOC (GEPOCTm) = (AV HR * Total Time + TRIMP + EPOC peak) / 3
    So I think you'd be able to sense check the movement in your training load using that. I think you didn't have TRIMP in your data below but you could either work it out with the Firstbeat white paper information or you can load your fit file into Runalyze.com and it'll give you that information.


    Thanks, Carl.
    Indeed, it helped me.
    I did load all my runs to Runalyze.com over the past 3 days. So I am able to get TRIMP numbers. Will use the formula above to compute the GEPOC and compare my results.