Having TE problems??? IT'S THE CHEST STRAP!!

If this is the case, and GARMIN, I mean really? REALLY?! This is one giant mistake if true. The difference here is so TITANICALLY wrong, it makes the watch, the strap, and weeks of recorded data useless. It means my Load is wrong, the status wrong, the TE for weeks wrong, Vo2max estimates wrong, EVERYTHING IS WRONG! What am I paying for if not a nearly precise piece of technology that records vital data about my health and fitness in nearly every facet!

And look, i'm not waiting for a reply, and i'm not going to send this info to your team. I'm out in about a week from this failure of a watch. I'm writing this for those that come read these forums and are having problems with your products. I'm hoping you'll actually take the time and READ YOUR OWN FORUMS FOR ONCE AND NOT DISMISS IT OUT OF HAND!

Your products are poor
Your software is shoddy
And it's starting to show.

Don't be shy. Why don't you just say exactly what you mean?

No problem with the chest strap, works perfectly to me

If this is the case, and GARMIN, I mean really? REALLY?! This is one giant mistake if true. The difference here is so TITANICALLY wrong, it makes the watch, the strap, and weeks of recorded data useless. It means my Load is wrong, the status wrong, the TE for weeks wrong, Vo2max estimates wrong, EVERYTHING IS WRONG! What am I paying for if not a nearly precise piece of technology that records vital data about my health and fitness in nearly every facet!

So what you're saying really is that you're not sure if you have a problem, but just in case , you'll make a big song and dance about anyway.

If you have identified a problem provide the data. That way, people on this forum might be able to help. Also contact Garmin and seek their support.

Ranting about a problem that might or might not be happening, provides no benefit to anyone. Well, I guess you feel happier.

Yea so...

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1770939300 (while wearing the HRM-Tri but no download of strap data, just the watches recorded data in the run taking HR and running dynamic info from the strap)

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1770950360 (Strap data downloaded after the run was done)

Same run, same everything....COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TRAINING EFFECTS!

Yea, totally working as intended. The strap is the issue. Instead of perhaps shooting down any issue that arises, perhaps you actually take the time to hear out the issue. Garmin is not perfect, nothing is; but burying your heads in the sand and stating it works just fine because you may have a decent model in hand is counterproductive. There are nothing but endless posts highlighting issue after issue with this watch, and they are the same issues over and over. This one thing, where the backbone of the way the watch gauge's your health over weeks of work can be potentially broken because the strap reports nonsense is a big deal.

But sure, go right ahead and ignore the giant glaring problems here. For the rest of you, I really hope this info can be of use to you.

Thank you for providing some data instead of just ranting.

Just to be clear, in the first instance, is HR and running dynamics are being recorded from the chest strap during the activity?

Is this the same strap from which you downloaded data afterwards and retrospectively applied it to arrive at the second activity?

Might just be me being stupid, but I'm not sure I understand what process you have followed to get the different outputs for the same activity.

Your initial rant while amusing was very light on details, so thanks for calming down enough to provide some details.
I get that you're frustrated and that your purpose is to warn people off buying what you feel are shoddy products, but if that's the case try and provide some specifics and context. Otherwise that first post does seriously come across as someone who doesn't know how to use the product rather than someone who has a genuine issue.

With that said - the data you've provided does show a clear problem with your training effect scores.
I do have one question - why would you want to download HR data after the workout rather than use the data recorded during the workout?
The reason I ask that is that I would have thought post activity HR download was only meant for swimming? I wouldn't get why you would want to do that for a run. That may not seem significant but I suspect the HRM-TRI doesn't store all the metrics for download later that it can otherwise send to the watch straight away.

The most obvious one that springs to mind is Heart Rate Variability, which I understand is a key part of determining training effect. Because I can't download your fit files (only the TCX versions) I can't load your data into Runalyze to confirm if the HRV data is in both files, but I suspect it isn't.

The other possible cause of the different training effect details is that the downloaded HR data may be using a training effect calculation that assumes you've done a swimming activity, which would have a different EPOC calculation to determine training effect than the one used for running.

Garmin could totally be more clear about this, but all their documentation around offline HR data download specifically talks about swimming.

I don't have the HRM-TRI so I can't test any of this, but even if I did I would never have thought to download the data afterwards if it was already recording during the activity?

Thank you for providing some data instead of just ranting.


Just to be clear, in the first instance, is HR and running dynamics are being recorded from the chest strap during the activity?


Is this the same strap from which you downloaded data afterwards and retrospectively applied it to arrive at the second activity?


Might just be me being stupid, but I'm not sure I understand what process you have followed to get the different outputs for the same activity.

1)Yes


2)Yes


There wasn't anything special here, I finished the run, let the watch upload the data to my phone, then went back into the sport and downloaded the HR data to the watch, which then uploaded to the phone.

carl.andersson
Your initial rant while amusing was very light on details, so thanks for calming down enough to provide some details.

No need for the snark here, you have a chip on your shoulder.

With that said - the data you've provided does show a clear problem with your training effect scores.
I do have one question - why would you want to download HR data after the workout rather than use the data recorded during the workout?
The reason I ask that is that I would have thought post activity HR download was only meant for swimming? I wouldn't get why you would want to do that for a run. That may not seem significant but I suspect the HRM-TRI doesn't store all the metrics for download later that it can otherwise send to the watch straight away.

Well, let me clear, because I apparently wasn't in the initial post, I NEVER dl the strap data for anything. And I do know that it was for swimming. The reason for doing this was to make a point here with straps and how the f5 is getting data from them or not. I needed more information before I could even put forth a hypnosis, and I think I have it now. The strap is the issue, but that might not be the Garmin straps, this might be an issue with TE and how information is being sent to the watch from off-brand straps.


This, https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1758914357 is a strgenth workout I did last thursday. For that I used my Polar H10. In fact, for every non run/non cycle workout since i've had the f5 i've used the H10. The HR data is really good, the strap is super comfortable and the rubberized little dots on the inside of the strap keep it in place, much better for dynamic movements than the HRM-Tri (which I just end up making tighter to secure it). Yet every, single workout was getting bonkers TE numbers, I mean absurd numbers, like .5 anaerobic TE from the upgraded version of that workout. After I got back the download info for the initial run (from the very 1st post) and saw numbers just like I was getting from the H10 during normal HIIT workouts, it started to make sense, I just needed to confirm it.


The watch is taking both the HR data AND TE from the strap, but only NON GARMIN STRAPS.


And yes, the downloaded data from the HRM-Tri is spitting out weird TE numbers, but if you just do the workout (or run or whatever) The HRM-Tri sends the HR data to the watch and not whatever TE it is recording. For example this same workout done this tuesday, but with me using the HRM-TRI: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1768184094


Now, you can make the argument that perhaps I was pushing harder on that day, but personally I think it's how the watch is interpreting data from non Garmin straps. And in the case of using the H10 the watch is taking both the HR data AND the TE DIRECTLY FROM THE STRAP. It's not taking just the HR data like with the HRM-Tri while leaving the watch to record the TE, it's taking both from the non garmin strap, and there is no way to change that or know for fact it is doing that (other than weeks of recorded data basically telling you...yea it's the strap).


In my case that makes a HUGE difference, because i've been using that H10 for everything since I started using this F5 (a little shy of a month now) and every workout looks like 1.5/2.0 aerobic TE .5/1.5 anaerobic TE using my H10. It means my training status is wrong, my training load is wrong. At this point I might just go and reset the watch and use only the HRM-Tri for everything if this is indeed the case.


And if this is the case and Garmin doesn't know, or does know and hasn't/won't do anything about it, why even offer support for off-brand sensors at all if you can't/won't work with them properly? I don't have issues with the HRM-Tri, I love that strap; but like I said above, not the greatest for workouts with lot's of movement.


Go put it to a test yourselves if you have a H10 or H7 or a Tickr X and a HRM-Tri/Run. Take a week and use your non garmin strap for workouts, then do the same workouts with your Garmin strap. If there's a coloration, then I am onto something, if not, then my hypnosis is wrong somewhere.


But look, after two years of having issues with there products and now dealing with yet ANOTHER problem, it's starting to become a trend for garmin in my eyes. Sure problems arise, but this is the same thing we dealt with with the F3HR. Their software development is rushed and full of bugs for nearly a year after the product comes out and they leave it to the users to fix their shoddy, rushed tech and I am sick of it. I have a M430 coming to my doorstep tomorrow because at this point, I want a watch that does what it says it will do, and from what I have been told, polar's tech works well out the gate. They are even working on getting Stryd support for their watches (I emailed their team). There are a lot of great things about Garmin that i've liked, even turned a blind eye to, but it's death-by-a-thousand-cuts with this company and I don't want to deal with it anymore.


Maybe the M430 is what I need, maybe it stinks, but either way, I don't settle for "oh they'll fix it" or "working as intended" as a standard. I'm objective, skeptical and that won't change.

The strap does not send TE, or even calculate it for that matter. It sends heart rate data, and the watch works the TE out from that - in particular, it uses HRV data to do that.

Can I be clear about something? Are you saying that you see this issue with the H10, but not with the Garmin strap, unless you re-download the data afterwards? So, possibly the watch isn't properly handling R-R data sent over Bluetooth, but does for ANT+?

Can't remember what the documentation says about R-R data from straps that store data for download (if anything). I'll look that up when I have a minute. It's possible that it's just sending the heart rate for each second, rather than the R-R times. Do you get sensible TE values for swimming?

The strap does not send TE, or even calculate it for that matter. It sends heart rate data, and the watch works the TE out from that - in particular, it uses HRV data to do that.

Can I be clear about something? Are you saying that you see this issue with the H10, but not with the Garmin strap, unless you re-download the data afterwards? So, possibly the watch isn't properly handling R-R data sent over Bluetooth, but does for ANT+?

Can't remember what the documentation says about R-R data from straps that store data for download (if anything). I'll look that up when I have a minute. It's possible that it's just sending the heart rate for each second, rather than the R-R times. Do you get sensible TE values for swimming?

Thank-you - this is what I was trying to understand as well.

@jstpassaro - if you could provide the fit tiles for your activities I can have a look and confirm which ones have HRV data stored and which ones don't.
My guess is that the H10 data and then downloaded/stored HRM-Tri data don't have HRV information, which makes it harder to calculate TE.

I might be totally wrong though. I have a HRM-Run4 and a Wahoo TICKR Run and I can confirm they both provide HRV data and both provide TE scores which seem okay to me. The Wahoo TICKR provides HRV data across both Ant+ and Bluetooth.
I do think they understate my perceived effort from strength/cardio sessions slightly but not as much as yours appear to.