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Weird super high cadence / calorie count for cycling... can you look at my ride?

Former Member
Former Member over 8 years ago
So I've been using my 5S for running the last few weeks without an issue. Today I decided to set it up for cycling where I use a Stages Power meter for power and cadence, and a Garmin Speed Sensor (the kind that wraps around the hub) along with my cycling computer an Edge 820.

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My setup:

Primary Garmin Account that tracks all workouts with 5S only...

1. Fenix 5S ANT+ to Garmin Speed Sensor
2. Fenix 5S *Bluetooth* to Stages Power Meter (because so many reported issues with Stages ANT+ drop outs I tried Bluetooth straight away)

Secondary Garmin Account that is tied to Edge 820 as a backup...

1. Edge 820 ANT+ to *BOTH* Garmin Speed Sensor AND Stages Power Meter
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Did a quick little 6 minute test ride and see some issues...

Fenix 5S ride: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1696773878
Edge 820 ride: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1696776566


1. The Fenix 5S seems to record identical cadence to the Edge 820 (again the 5S via Bluetooth, the Edge by ANT+) in the 80-85 rpm range yet it shows "176 rpm" at the end of the 5S cadence graph vs. 81 rpm at the end of the Edge 820 graph.

2. The Fenix 5S shows 113 calories burned in less than 6 minutes vs. 40 something on the Edge 820. Both have my same physical stats although the Edge 820 file wasn't tied to a HR monitor for this ride. Still 113 is *impossible* for this ride and I feel it must have something to do with the weird rpm cadence value on the 5S file.

3. The Power Meter doesn't show any obvious drop outs on either and averages are close but the 5S tracking Stages via Bluetooth doesn't show the two brief times I stopped pedaling going around a corner while the Edge 820 connecting to Stages via ANT+ clearly shows this.

4. When calibrating the Stages power meter before the ride the Edge 820 shows a automatic calibration result value of "900" (typical) while the Fenix 5S calibration screen has a different wording and calls the automatic calibration an "Offset of 0". Is this the same thing? The Pedal was at the 6 o'clock position as per the standard calibration instructions.

5. When the 5S file with the weird high rpm cadence and huge calorie burn was uploaded automatically to Strava (I didn't upload the 820 file to Strava) the Strava workout summary shows a cadence average of 83 (no weird 176) and a calorie burn of around 50.

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Does anyone have any of these issues or any idea what caused them? I am going to try to hook the Fenix 5S to Stages via ANT+ today but I'm worried I won't have much luck or get the numerous drop outs, but I'm disappointed by the weird cadence value that doesn't seem to match the recorded cadences and the lack of the Power Meter showing when I stopped pedaling when the 5S was hooked via Bluetooth. The calorie value is also hugely out of wack and will throw off the 5S's tracking of my daily calorie burn unless I can fix this.

Thanks for any help!
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    Some more troubleshooting this morning...

    1. Deleted Stages Bluetooth from 5S, connected Stages ANT+ to 5S.
    2. Calibrating Stages on 5S via ANT+ showed Offset of "899" vs. "900" on Edge 820. Sounds good.
    3. Went for 2 minute ride, Stages ANT+ never detected by 5S on the entire ride but for a brief second or two showing 0 watts. Cadence never registered. ANT+ signal strength from Stages *IS HORRIBLE* and the ability of the 5S to detect weak ANT+ signals *IS HORRIBLE.*

    SOOOO...

    4. Deleted Stages ANT+ from 5S, connected Stages Bluetooth to 5S.
    5. Calibrating Stages 5S via Bluetooth showed Offset of "0" again vs. "899" via ANT+ (5S) or "900" (Edge 820).
    6. Went for 2 minute ride, Stages Bluetooth always remained connected to 5S and this time the tiny file shows normal cadence values, normal calorie values, and seems to show Power dropping to zero during the times I stop pedaling (perhaps with a slight lag, almost like via Bluetooth the Power is being "smoothed" compared to ANT+, but its close enough.)

    Perhaps the bad 5S ride yesterday was a fluke? I wonder why the calibration doesn't seem to be working with Bluetooth? The values are out of wack but the end Power result as recorded seems fine? I'll try a longer ride here this afternoon... I love Garmin but I wish someone would make this easier and less flaky... when will there be an "Apple" of the fitness world?
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    Longer ride this time (leisure with my wife, not trying to put out big power numbers) but the exact same issue... the Fenix 5S tied to Stages with Bluetooth is showing an incorrectly high average cadence despite it appearing to recording the correct values for cadence AND the calorie burn is more than double expected. Both my Fenix 5S *and* my Edge 820 were tied to the same external HR strap this time so that has been taken out of the equation...

    Fenix 5S: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1698208276
    Edge 820: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1698205724

    Bummer...
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    I suspect your watch may be defective, and if I were in your shoes, I'd try to return it for an exchange. Because:

    (1) Average cadence is clearly nonsense, it can't be higher than your maximum cadence for a ride.
    (2) Calories should come from power (kJ), and have nothing to do with HR.

    I've never used a Stages PM. I've heard they use a weak transmitter but your charts don't look full of dropouts. Anyway, I can't tell you a thing about calibrating one, and you should probably chase this down, too. Bike Forums might be a good resource for this, or Slow Twitch.

    I have a Fenix 5X not a 5S, and a Vector 2 not a Stages. With that said, here are two recent rides I've done - I'm not sure if there's any value in these for you, but I suppose they show that it's possible for a Fenix watch to work with a power meter.

    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1694643846
    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1665957786
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    I suspect your watch may be defective, and if I were in your shoes, I'd try to return it for an exchange. Because:

    (1) Average cadence is clearly nonsense, it can't be higher than your maximum cadence for a ride.
    (2) Calories should come from power (kJ), and have nothing to do with HR.

    I've never used a Stages PM. I've heard they use a weak transmitter but your charts don't look full of dropouts. Anyway, I can't tell you a thing about calibrating one, and you should probably chase this down, too. Bike Forums might be a good resource for this, or Slow Twitch.

    I have a Fenix 5X not a 5S, and a Vector 2 not a Stages. With that said, here are two recent rides I've done - I'm not sure if there's any value in these for you, but I suppose they show that it's possible for a Fenix watch to work with a power meter.

    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1694643846
    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1665957786


    I appreciate the input but I don't see how a hardware problem would specifically cause the cadence to read high when clearly the data set shows all the cadence read accurately. This seems to most likely be an error in the way Garmin is parsing BLUETOOTH Power data which they are brand new to (Fenix 5 was first to support Bluetooth power), your Vector pedals of course are ANT+. I'm wondering if anyone with Bluetooth power, especially if it is Stages can chime in... that said I have put in this same question to Garmin Support and Stages support, we shall see if they have any input and I'll also chime back in when I hear. Thanks!
  • 0 over 8 years ago
    I appreciate the input but I don't see how a hardware problem would specifically cause the cadence to read high when clearly the data set shows all the cadence read accurately. This seems to most likely be an error in the way Garmin is parsing BLUETOOTH Power data which they are brand new to (Fenix 5 was first to support Bluetooth power), your Vector pedals of course are ANT+. I'm wondering if anyone with Bluetooth power, especially if it is Stages can chime in... that said I have put in this same question to Garmin Support and Stages support, we shall see if they have any input and I'll also chime back in when I hear. Thanks!


    I don't have a power meter, but as a left-only PM, I think that the Fenix is incorrectly parsing the Stages cadence data (BT power meters standards are widely known to be a mess) and doubling it?
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    Bingo that totally makes sense. Let's see what both Garmin and Stages have to say, maybe a firmware fix for them is easy. Anyone else using Stages with Fenix with Bluetooth?
  • 0 over 8 years ago
    same problem

    hello,

    I have a very similar Setup as yours, stages genII connected to fenix 5, via Bluetooth and to edge 1000 with ant+, my last activity yesterday shows excessive calories and cadence as well. It´s the second time that it occurs. When riding indoor the Setup is a bit different on the edge (connected to Neo) and exactly the same on the fenix 5 (stages over buetooth). Indoor everything is just fine.

    Something is doubling the cadence and and calories, Kj are always correct. I will try to connect stages to fenix via ant+ to see if it Bluetooth related.

    Regards,

    A. Duarte
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    Thanks for the help everyone, I posted this also to DCRainmaker's (Ray Maker) Fenix 5 review comment thread and 2 other people chimed in with the same issue, double calories and average cadence using Bluetooth and Stages and various Fenix 5 models. Pretty sure it's a software/firmware issue somewhere, hope we can get a quick fix because Stages is a very popular Power Meter because of its lower cost and frankly ANT+ is unusable on Stages with Fenix 5 due to the combo of a weak ANT+ signal and the Fenix 5 having a very poor antenna at least compared to older Garmins so we NEED Bluetooth to work correctly.
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    Stages support has responded:

    "Thanks for your email and I am happy to help. Looking at the files that you sent over it would appear that your meter is sending the same values to both your Fenix and your Edge 820. What is likely causing the inflation in calories and cadence summary is likely firmware related with your watch over the BTLE protocol. The Fenix is the first of what we hope is many Garmin devices that utilize the Bluetooth protocol so that we can eliminate drops that people are experiencing over ANT+ but it might take a little time to get the firmware dialed.

    It would appear that you Stages is operating as designed.

    Let me know if you have any additional questions and I would be happy to help"

    My response:

    "Thanks for the kind reply. I agree with your fact finding, it does seem to be a firmware error in the way the Fenix 5S and Garmin Connect interprets the Stages BTLE data. That said may I make two points?

    1. Can Stages please contact Garmin about this issue? I am just a single user and surely a well known power meter company like Stages Cycling contacting Garmin about this bug is more likely to bring swifter resolution in the form of a firmware fix to the Fenix/935 series?

    2. I'm not trying to make this a blame game but it remains a fact that the ANT+ signal from the Stages Gen 2 is one of the weaker if not weakest power meter ANT+ signals on the market in any form factor. Your competitor 4iiii is having no such issues with their ANT+ signal on their crank power meter. I have no doubt Garmin isn't doing your company any favors with continuing to put ever less sensitive antennas in their newer products but they can get away with it because the rest of the power meter industry is putting out a much stronger signal then Stages. While I'm sure a future model from Stages will solve this with a stronger signal, having Garmin properly support your BTLE signal has the potential to "fix" this for your existing customers so I would hope helping Garmin to properly use your Bluetooth signal is a very high priority for your support team. I have to believe power meter customers in general tend to be some of the most likely to own "high" end Garmin's like the Fenix 5 series so we unfortunately are also the most likely to be having problems with your products.

    Thanks for your help and attention!"
  • Former Member
    0 Former Member over 8 years ago
    Well that was fast... I tried beta 2.96 just now and it *appears* to have fixed the issue with an update to the internal ANT/BTLE stack although the notes of the 2.95/2.96 don't make mention of the fix... that said BTLE power meter data from Stages still is less responsive to changes in power and seems to be "smoothed" which is causing some moderate differences in watts measured although I would suspect the actual difference on a longer more steady ride the this would be far, far less.

    Here is a VERY brief example:

    5S: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1699764672
    Edge 820:https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1699763826