Not wearing 24/7 does this affect VO2Max?

OK so some weeks I don't wear my F5+ all the time, I have a nice mechanical watch to wear as well. If I only wear the Fenix for activities, mainly running about 3-4 times a week and then take off how will this affect my V02Max and will it skew my overall fitness data?

Thanks
Graham

0 Dr Phil over 6 years ago

VO[SUB]2max[/SUB] calculated on Garmin devices requires GPS data. Period. About as unequivocal as you can get.

0 SAHO over 6 years ago

Historically your statement is probably right, but it seems your knowledge is rather outdated.
(How is that statement equivocal by the way? Do you want me to google the meaning of that word for you, or is something lost in translation?)

How do you explain otherwise that the Vivosmart 4 features VO2max? That device doesn't even have GPS as far as I can see, and as I said - Garmin has confirmed to me directly that the Fenix 5 Plus has the same capability, and it seems that this method (whatever the method is) kicks in after a period of lacking FirstBeat data.

If you doubt this, or think you have a better knowledge of this than Garmin, then I guess it's time for you to start showing some proof or sources.

0 chatlow over 6 years ago

That's bizarre how your vo2 numbers have changed using a treadmill.

That said, for cycling, the F5/F5+ doesn't always require GPS and can use power from an indoor trainer along with heart rate to calculate and adjust vo2 max. I know this because it happened to me a few months ago, using my Tacx Vortex on Zwift. Ive since stopped connecting to the trainer and just connect to sensors as the power value is not as accurate being a wheel based trainer.

Do you use a footpod that has built running power like Stryd when on the treadmill? I wonder if combined with HR, that could affect vo2..

0 HermanB over 6 years ago

OK so some weeks I don't wear my F5+ all the time, I have a nice mechanical watch to wear as well. If I only wear the Fenix for activities, mainly running about 3-4 times a week and then take off how will this affect my V02Max and will it skew my overall fitness data?

Thanks
Graham

VO2max, Training Status, Training Load, etc... are only influenced by performance data from recorded activities - and the parameters you set like weight and HRmax.

They are not influenced by 24/7 monitoring data in any way. Obviously, in order to provide meaningful feedback, Training Load and Training Status depend on the assumption that you are recording practically all your exercise activities. Very little Training Load accumulates during very-low intensity activities like walking, so while getting your 'daily steps' in is probably a good idea for general health promotion, the resulting load is pretty much inconsequential in terms of Training Load monitoring.

What you miss out on by not wearing your watch 24/7 is the personalized calibration for metrics like All-day Stress and Body Battery.

Long story short… you'll be fine, and can expect good feedback from your watch.

0 SAHO over 6 years ago

chatlow It's true that GPS isn't required for obtaining VO2max updates from cycling, so getting VO2max from cycling is supposed to happen by design.

VO2max is (at a high level) calculated by comparing effort vs performed work, or as FirstBeat is explaining it; internal work (HR) vs. external work (pace or watt), and traditionally there has been two ways to get this from a Garmin device:

1. Running where the inputs are HR for internal work and pace/speed from GPS for external work.
2. Cycling where the inputs are HR for internal work and power/watt from a power meter

Then of course there are other factors that goes into the calculation such as body weight and other user attributes.

Now, Garmin has started to calculate VO2max based on all day activity tracking when updates from the FirstBeat algorithms are missing for some time, and that makes me curious of how they do that, and which sources of data is affecting it.

Yes, I do use a Stryd when running on the treadmill, but it's paired as a foot pod and not power meter. The power data recorded by the Stryd is synced as CiQ data field, not native running power. I don't think this has anything to do with the VO2max updates I see (at least not directly), as the updates are just as likely to appear on days without any (recorded) activities.

0 SAHO over 6 years ago

HermanB Thanks for chiming in.

Just to get it confirmed - for the Fitness component of Training Status - is there anything else needed than a valid/updated VO2max trend?

As described earlier in this thread, I get updates almost daily during the last month for VO2max but Fitness in Training Status is still blank, with 'No Status' as result for TS. In the same period I don't get any other FirstBeat data like LT, Performance Condition etc. either.

Garmin has already confirmed that they now do VO2max from All Day activity tracking - but am I right to assume that the updates I see to my VO2max is coming from somewhere else than the "traditional" FirstBeat algorithms that works directly during recorded activities?

0 HermanB over 6 years ago

In theory it should not affect your VO2max, but I find Garmin to be kind of secretive on how this is calculated and it seems to depend highly on which types of activities you do and how often you do it.

Example:
In the summer half of the year when I do outside running several times per week and record it with the native Run app, VO2max is provided by the FirstBeat algorithms and updates seems to always be direct results from the recorded runs. In this scenario, not wearing the watch 24/7 should not affect your fitness data.

When I moved my running inside for the winter, I immediately stopped getting FirstBeat data, hence no updates of VO2max, and after a couple of weeks the Fitness component of Training Status went blank. (as expected)

However to my surprise: after a month or so of indoor running only I suddenly started to get updates to my VO2max, but still without any of the other FirstBeat metrics or Training Status.
I can't find any pattern in when I receive these updates, and certainly no direct link to my indoor running, so I guess that it's somehow calculated from my all-day activity tracking. In this scenario I guess the fitness data could be affected by wearing it 24/7 or not, however the VO2max updates I get now are very flattering so I don't pay too much attention to it, and I suspect the values to drop significantly when I get outside and the FirstBeat algorithms kicks into life again.

The goal is to always provide the best possible, most reliable feedback. Sometimes this goal conflicts with the ability to provide feedback in less than ideal conditions.

As far as I know (and I am pretty sure about this), there are currently only 3 activities during which a Garmin device will ever update VO2max values. 1) walking, 2) running) and 3) cycling. And cycling-based VO2max is only ever possible when you have a power meter on your bike. So, that leaves walking and running. VO2max calculated during running tends to be much better than walking, but for people who are limited to walking, well, something is better than nothing.

Where things get tricky is when you haven't recorded a run for a quite a long time. Essentially, your watch gets really, really thirsty and will then possibly, sometimes show a walking-based VO2max that under normal conditions it wouldn't have been confident enough to reveal. I've seen this happen, personally, in a situation similar to the one you described - and yes, it's pretty impossible to predict. I can say, however, that it is not based on non-activity data - although there are some device on the market attempt to provided fitness estimates based on resting tests, etc. Firstbeat doesn't have anything to do with anything like that.

0 HermanB over 6 years ago

VO[SUB]2max[/SUB] calculated on Garmin devices requires GPS data. Period. About as equivocal as you can get.

The vívosmart series provides VO2max but does not have GPS onboard - nor does it borrow GPS from your paired phone. It relies on accelerometer data.

Cycling-based VO2max estimates rely on watts from your power meter and have nothing to do with GPS either.

Can a Fenix 5 estimate VO2max using only accelerometer data during walking like the vívosmart series? I don't know, I really don't. It might, in theory it could, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, and even if it did there's a very good chance that the analytics engine might toss it out as being below the reliability confidence that it's keen to work with.

0 HermanB over 6 years ago

chatlow

Now, Garmin has started to calculate VO2max based on all day activity tracking when updates from the FirstBeat algorithms are missing for some time, and that makes me curious of how they do that, and which sources of data is affecting it.

I hadn't seen this when I was writing my last reply, but just to be clear - your VO2max shouldn't ever update based on 'all day activity tracking,' unless MAYBE during some sort of autodetected Move IQ event like a long walk or something.

0 HermanB over 6 years ago

HermanB Thanks for chiming in.

Just to get it confirmed - for the Fitness component of Training Status - is there anything else needed than a valid/updated VO2max trend?

VO2max trend are Training Load are all you need. And, of course, for the feedback to be meaningful your Training Load needs to represent pretty much all of your exercise sessions.

As described earlier in this thread, I get updates almost daily during the last month for VO2max but Fitness in Training Status is still blank, with 'No Status' as result for TS. In the same period I don't get any other FirstBeat data like LT, Performance Condition etc. either.

Your situation sounds pretty strange and I'm not very confident about a good diagnosis of what's going on. BUT if I had to guess, your VO2max is being calculated like it would for a walking activity based entirely on accelerometer data and not on GPS, the analytics engine doesn't think that it's reliable enough to feed into the Training Status analysis… or something like that.

Garmin has already confirmed that they now do VO2max from All Day activity tracking - but am I right to assume that the updates I see to my VO2max is coming from somewhere else than the "traditional" FirstBeat algorithms that works directly during recorded activities?

I don't doubt that someone may have said that Garmin is providing VO2max from All-day activity tracking, but I'm not sure what they meant. I suspect it was a reference to automatically detected activities, but I'm positive that it doesn't mean from non-activity data like resting HR, HRV test, or stress tracking or anything like that like that.