Mk2 Descent?

Wireless Air Integrated dive computers are less reliable in the same way that automatic transmissions in cars are less reliable than manual transmissions.

I currently have two AI dive computers: Oceanic Atom 3.0 and Shearwater Perdix AI. Both computers have been extremely reliable.

I've had the Atom 3.0 for 5 years and used it for over 800 dives. While the connection to the transmitter does get lost occasionally, it is brief and I have never had to resort to looking at my SPG. Not once!

I've only had the Perdix AI for 15 months and only done 250 dives with it. It almost never loses connection with the transmitter during the dive. It has happened less than 10 times in 250 dives. Like the Atom 3.0, it is only a very brief loss of connection.

I frequently dive with two sets of regs and so two transmitters and even running with two I rarely have connection dropouts.

I have SPGs on all my sets of regs. This is not because I find the AI unreliable but simply because I love diving so much I don't want anything to prevent me from ding or having to abort a dive. Since starting to dive with AI computers, I've never had to check my SPG.

Many of my diving friends (and I have a lot) dive with wireless AI exclusively and don't have SPGs. None of them have had issues.

Interestingly, last year I was taking a guy diving and he had one of those physically integrated dive computers on his regs. He turned his tank on and it leaked like a sieve. Fortunately, he had a wireless AI computer and we were able to remove the other computer and plug up the HP port and do our dive.

By the way, I have not had any Bluetooth connectivity issues with my Mk1 - not that Bluetooth and AI is even related.

You don’t need to justify your opinion about using AI and wanting it in a future model. AI has its place BUT in your post you mentioned two AI computers and with both you mentioned that you have lost signals before, no matter how long, you still lost it. One time is too many in my book. A lot of people with AI do not go out and invest in buying a SPG, so they rely on just their one computer.

The purpose of my previous post was to state that AI is the LEAST reliable of the 3 types of computers and that’s a fact. Personally, as an Instructor I choose to dive with a non-air intergrated computer as I can’t afford to have issues with my gear while with students. Now, I do dive with at least two computers but it’s usually a wrist computer as my backup. A few years ago, I was diving with a Proplus 3.0 (this is what changed my mind) that malfunctioned and my screen went blank at the beginning of the dive but since I was training, I couldn’t come up. I knew my SAC rate for the depth I was at so I had a generalized time but afterwards, I said never again will I dive with an all digital computer.

Adding AI to a watch that already has a base price of $1k, will probably price itself out of most people’s budgets. I’ve had both the SS and Ti version of this watch. The SS version had by far the best connection to my phone. I had numerous issues with 2 different Ti watches and their connection to my phone.

Nope. I was not trying to justify my opinion. I was merely dispelling your myths about AI.

Yes. It is a fact that wireless AI is the least reliable but it is also a fact that automatic transmissions are less reliable than manual transmissions and yet the vast majority iof cars today are sold with automatic transmissions. This shows that "least" or "less" reliable doesn't mean unacceptable unreliability.

"I said never again will I dive with an all digital computer." Say what? All computers are all digital. That's pretty much the definition of a computer (yes I understand that a computer could be analog) . This means you don't trust any dive computer so why are you even in this forum. I bet you sell dive computers in your shop and yet you don't trust any of them.

It is fine that you personally don't trust wireless AI computers but that doesn't make them unreliable. Tens of thousands of divers around the world happily dive with wireless AI computers. Just spend 5 minutes looking at the discussions on Scubaboard about wireless AI computers. In fact, I dare you to post your opinion there about them.

I can guarantee that people using a dive computer with wireless AI will know their tank contents far more regularly than those diving with just an SPG. Even if the AI was to drop out once in a while, they would still see their contents more often than with an SPG. There's nothing wrong with an SPG but AI is so much easier and every time someone checks their depth, NDL, etc. they will also know they tank contents, plus they will know their air/gas time remaining which is an extremely useful feature that an SPG won't give you.

I already have my Descent Mk1 and even if they brought out the Mk2 tomorrow and it had AI I wouldn't buy it. Perhaps in a couple of years time I might but I don't really care if there's AI in the Descent line in the near future.

I sell these things for a living, it’s my job to know more about them and what the SAFEST option is for divers, not the most “convenient”.

You said above that you DON'T sell these things (wireless AI computers). From what I can tell you have never even used one. i.e. you have no experience with them.

You also claimed in another post that you sold your Mk1 and that you don't sell them in your shop. Again, I ask you what are you doing in this forum talking about things with which you have no experience.

Diving is a dangerous sport. The SAFEST option without any doubt at all is to not dive. Simple as. If you were truly concerned about safety you wouldn't be teaching people to dive.

Lol, you’re funny ATJ with your “assumptions”. I have used them and even tested out an AI Shearwater Perdix recently that I had issues with while in the pool. Great computer, but I’ll lose the and just stick to the wrist (no AI). I’ve used enough and have been around enough divers and manufacturers to know the “behind the scenes” of things. I’m much more qualified to formulate a professional opinion because this is what I do for a living, you do this for fun.

I’m more than qualified to talk about the Descent because up until a month ago, I had 2 versions of the watch, since January of 2018. I stopped selling them because customers were paying $1000 for a watch that had been advertised on having “the best features” of the 5x, with a few diving applications associated with it. I got tired of the complaints and quite frankly was disappointed myself in the slow development of the watch. I’m going to help someone here if they have a question, regardless of the forum. I won’t help with anything related to CCR because I know nothing about that side and I will not talk about something that I don’t know anything about. If you don’t like it...well tough “you know what”

Lastly, your comment about diving being a dangerous sport is clearly from a “recreational standpoint” and that I “shouldn’t teach anyone to keep them safe” is quite frankly the most idiotic statement that I’ve ever heard anyone say on this forum. I hope you NEVER become a diving professional and any respect I had for you as a diver is now completely gone. The sport of Scuba Diving has less reported injures than most other sports. In fact DAN did a study on reported accidents and found that more “Master Divers” were injuried than basic and Advanced (cockiness always takes over) together. Diving is a safe sport if you follow the rules of the road, which of course anything can happen underwater but is less likely...just like driving. As an Instructor, safety is a priority ranging from the classroom, to pool training, to open water dives, to continuing education. Ever word that comes out of my mouth (Scuba related) or quite frankly any other Instructor or DM’s mouth can be used against you. You have no concept of the liability associated with teaching and diving professionally. So if I recommend something or say something, it’s because it is the SAFEST option for people.

My previous comments were predicated on the fact wireless computers are the least reliable out of non-air intergrated, air-integrated type of computers and losing a signal underwater, even one time is too many.

I am always enjoy reading you two guys in forums. You guys bring good perspectives and that is always helpful for dive communities. ATJ your point is valid, but from Odie has a point too. If I am in a deep dive with planned deco and if my AI goes blank, at that point, I have no idea if it would come back alive. So, that would be pretty unnerving. And at that point, even if it comes alive, I am aborting my dive and going for "ascent" (no pun intended) as I have no guarantee it will not malfunction again. Now, having a backup SPG will save my dive.

My two cents.
Again, want to thank you guys being active in community and helping fellow divers.

Lastly, your comment about diving being a dangerous sport is clearly from a “recreational standpoint” and that I “shouldn’t teach anyone to keep them safe” is quite frankly the most idiotic statement that I’ve ever heard anyone say on this forum.

It was purposely idiotic to show how ridiculous your logic is.

You argue that wireless AI is less safe than any other form of tank pressure display. Which if you look at it in some ways is true but the difference in safety is negligible. The difference in safety between an SPG and not diving at all is insurmountable. And yet you are discounting a negligible difference and ignore the insurmountable one. You talk about the SAFEST option but igore the actual SAFEST option. Your logic is flawed.

Gear can fail. Any gear, all gear. I've had regs fail. Tanks fail. Dive computers fail. There is always a risk. Diving is about managing risk.

SPGs can fail or worse give false readings. In fact, in the last two weeks I was diving with someone who ONLY had an SPG. He thought he had 80 bar in his tank. 5 minutes later he had less than 40 bar and we were a long way from the exit. It wasn't that he use the air but simply that the SPG stuck on 80. Should we deem that SPGs are unsafe? It only failed once.

I contend that in some ways wireless AI is safer than an SPG. You talk about "convenience". It is true, wireless AI is convenient and a lot more convenient than an SPG. But the reverse is also true. An SPG can be inconvenient. It is not as easy to check. Yes. It is important to check it regularly but divers get complacent and don't check their SPG as regularly because it is inconvenient.

I regularly take (experienced) divers on divers. If the diver is unfamiliar with the site I ask them to tell me when they get to 120 bar so I can gauge how they are doing and whether we need to go faster or can dawdle. I find that divers with SPG only, they almost never tell me when they get to 120 bar because they rarely or never check their SPG. Divers with wireless AI almost always tell me when they get to 120 bar because their tank pressure is right there in front of them. Which of those options is safer?

If I am in a deep dive with planned deco and if my AI goes blank, at that point, I have no idea if it would come back alive. So, that would be pretty unnerving. And at that point, even if it comes alive, I am aborting my dive and going for "ascent" (no pun intended) as I have no guarantee it will not malfunction again. Now, having a backup SPG will save my dive.

Wow! This is scary.

First. Why are you doing a deep dive with planned deco and you don't have a redundant supply of gas? Anything could happen to your primary gas and you should not be doing a deco dive without redundancy - i.e. enough gas to get you to the surface safely and meet your deco commitment.

Second. If you are concerned about the wireless AI, why wouldn't you have an SPG for redundancy while on a deep dive with planned deco? Any time you have a forced ceiling redundancy is important.

I guess you haven't used wireless AI before. It doesn't just "go blank". If on the rare occasion that the signal is lost (and in my experience with over 200 dives on my Perdix AI this happens once in every 25 dives or less on average), the tank pressure flashes with the last known value. If the signal doesn't come back in a minute (which has never happened with the Perdix AI on a dive), then it will be blank. If this was to happen on a dive it is just a matter of moving the computer to a better location. I only know it has gone blank because after a dive when I turned off my tank and purged my regs there is no signal.

If you were to have regular dropouts, it means you haven't placed the transmitter on your regs on the best side for where your AI computer is. Transmitters can have blind spots and so the signal is not as strong if you are in that blind spot. Generally, just switching sides on the first stage is enough to resolve any issues. Other options include adding a small HP hose between the first stage and the transmitter. I actually have this on my pony regs. As I said, I very rarely have dropouts.

atj777 This will be my last (albeit, shorter response) in regards to this wireless vs hardline discussion. Throughout your last several posts, you’ve stated that you have only lost your signal a few times (1 in every 25 based on your last post). Then you tried justifying that, that was ok because you knew someone that had an SPG that malfunctioned (or was misread). Am I missing something here? Can malfunctions happen? Absolutely, but the likelihood of it happening (SPG failing vs a wireless signal) is drastically less.

When I’m teaching, I say this to my class: “The more steps it takes to be successful, the more steps there are for failure.” While I use that when comparing an Octo vs an Air 2, it applies here as well. You stated about having to put the transmitter on the same side that you’re wearing the computer but with a 1st Stage only having 2 HP ports, you’re relegated to having it on the right (if your SPG is on the left and vice versa), or having blind spots, etc. Again, if you have to have all of these things (and more) for the wireless signal to be successful, then there is a much bigger chance for failure.

These posts of mine aren’t for you. You’ve made your bed, now you lay in it. These are for the upcoming and newly certified divers who don’t know any better, who get very bad advice from vet divers. If I said that I’ve been driving for 30 years, does that mean I’m a good driver? Same applies to “experienced” divers. I’m not knocking your skill set, I don’t know you but the advice being given here, is incorrect.

I don’t care who may get offended by my opinions, if I state something (in relation to this field), then I know I’m right.

/end of discussion