Calories burn with and without heart rate monitor

Jim, Different methods for different things. Have a look here paying particular attention to item 2 dealing with Phantom Cycling and sensor pairing.
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?207193-Experimental-Design&p=511921#post511921

It is one of those experiments (not previously published) that I used to warm txg that taking his HRM off was not going to make it stop transmitting data but rather, to your own point, make it transmit bogus data.

If you want to continue this particular conversation, lets do it on that Experimental Design thread not here.

Here are all 10 experiments from the weekend just past presented in a uniform way:

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Generally speaking, when running with a HRM, the VS reported calorie expenditures of 2/3 that of the fenix 2 and half that of the HR based calorie calculator which should have been its best proxy. Walking with the HRM yielded much more erratic results: 33% to 73% of the fenix's HRV values and 18% to 42% of online calculator result.

Running WITHOUT a HRM produced Vivosmart calorie expenditure estimates that were within 10 percentage points of both the fenix 2 values and METS based estimates. Walking without and HRM consistently produced Vivosmart estimates that were 20% below those delivered by the fenix 2 and 25% below those based on METS. Note that, without a HRM paired, the fenix 2 does not base its burn estimates on HRV. In theory, it should be defaulting to the same type of time/distance/speed/cadence methodology being used by the Vivosmart. Of course, if that were true, the two devices' estimates for non-HR activities should be identical which, in fact, they are not. In each of the three non-HRM walks, the Vivosmart reported calories of EXACTLY 79% of the fenix. In the two non-HRM runs, these values came in at 90% and 91%.

In summary, the Vivosmart consistently produces calorie burn estimates that are substantially below estimates yielded by other generally accepted methods. In the case of VS HRM paired estimates they are both too low and too erratic to be believable. Until this gets sorted out, if calorie burn is your primary interest, exercise without the HRM. If HR is your primary training metric, use the strap but take your caloric expenditure estimate from almost any other source.

Absent contrary data from at least one other person, I am sticking with my original contention that Garmin has some screwed up code or underlying logic in the area of reporting calories when paired with a heart rate monitor.

The latest evidence:

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These were four runs all performed by me today over the same known two mile course while attempting to maintain a 9:00 pace. For the two runs highlighted in yellow, I paired both the Vivosmart and my fenix 2 with my ultra-reliable and HRV capable Garmin HRM1B. The two un-highlighted runs were performed with no HRM paired with either Garmin device.

Running with an HRM resulted in VS calorie expenditure values that were less than 65% of the fenix HRV values and less than half of the values provided by either of two HR based online calculators. If it is cheating you while you are running you have to believe it is cheating you just as bad or worse when you are engaging in other forms of exercise. I would like to see their math. If it is proprietary, they should pay their competitors to take it off their hands.

It is not the HRM. The fenix was using the same one and the numbers are perfectly reasonable. I do not think it is the band. It is counting steps, computing distances, keeping time, passing along notifications and counting calories . . . just not enough of them . . . especially when I help it out by wearing a HRM.

Hi FLYoung, I'm very interested in this thread and your findings. I too have a VS and F2 (and an eTrex30). So far, I've been analyzing stats (between the eTrex30 and F2) like distance and elevation gain/loss, but on Saturday I'll be hiking an 8 mile peak (with almost 8,000 feet gain) and will wear my HRM paired with both the VS and F2. Will upload activities here, as you have done, in an effort to support your findings. One question - how do I know which version HRM I am using? I've gone through a few and lost track of the one I currently use.

One question - how do I know which version HRM I am using? I've gone through a few and lost track of the one I currently use.

Thanks for participating KWAGATHA. If your HRM is from Garmin, the model number will be on the back of the transmitter. If it is one of the snap off style transmitters it will probably be a HRM2-SS, HRM3-SS, or HRM-RUN. If it is one of the kind that has the contact pads and transmitter formed into one long plastic piece, it is probably an HRM1. These come in more than one flavor but as far as I can tell, look and perform the same. I have and HRM1B and a newer HRM1G. From strictly a HR perspective they all look the same to your F2 or VS.

I look forward to seeing your results.

Will upload activities here, as you have done, in an effort to support your findings.

One other thing. I am not necessarily looking for supportive data just more data. After all, this thread started with a person who got twice the calories with a HRM than without. I am primarily interested in understanding the numbers we are seeing and—if they are consistently nonsensical—getting Garmin to change the way they are arriving at these numbers.

One other thing. I am not necessarily looking for supportive data just more data. After all, this thread started with a person who got twice the calories with a HRM than without. I am primarily interested in understanding the numbers we are seeing and—if they are consistently nonsensical—getting Garmin to change the way they are arriving at these numbers.

Understood. I think mine will be all over the place too. I don't want to jump the gun because I haven't done this specific comparison, but my devices all report wildly dissimilar results, some explainable, some not, so this will be interesting. ~Karin

Thanks for participating KWAGATHA. If your HRM is from Garmin, the model number will be on the back of the transmitter. If it is one of the snap off style transmitters it will probably be a HRM2-SS, HRM3-SS, or HRM-RUN. If it is one of the kind that has the contact pads and transmitter formed into one long plastic piece, it is probably an HRM1. These come in more than one flavor but as far as I can tell, look and perform the same. I have and HRM1B and a newer HRM1G. From strictly a HR perspective they all look the same to your F2 or VS.

I look forward to seeing your results.

Hello FLYoung - I have the snap off style transmitter, so I'll assume it's either the HRM2 or HRM3. I took a magnifying glass to the whole thing and still can't find a model number. I suppose it was on the packaging which is long gone. No matter since it should not impact my results this weekend. I'll have it paired to all 3 devices - not even sure if that's feasible - eTrex30, VS, F2.

I took a magnifying glass to the whole thing and still can't find a model number.

Karin, they don't make it easy and you are right in that it probably does not matter if it is a Garmin (or for that matter any Ant+ chest strap). There is some doubt about the RR (HRV) capabilities of the LED based HRMS like the MIO and Scosche.

But, if you want to satisfy your curiosity, it should be near the top of the battery door on the back of the transmitter between the word GARMIN and the Ant+ Logo:

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One of the beauties of Ant+—and an area of clear superiority over Bluetooth Low Energy—is its ability to pair a single sensor (your HRM) with an umlimited number of receivers (eTrex30, VS, F2). You should have no problems with that but be sure when you set out that your VS is paired to your HRM and not someone else's. Your HR should show within one beat on all three devices.

Karin, they don't make it easy and you are right in that it probably does not matter if it is a Garmin (or for that matter any Ant+ chest strap). There is some doubt about the RR (HRV) capabilities of the LED based HRMS like the MIO and Scosche.

But, if you want to satisfy your curiosity, it should be near the top of the battery door on the back of the transmitter between the word GARMIN and the Ant+ Logo:

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One of the beauties of Ant+—and an area of clear superiority over Bluetooth Low Energy—is its ability to pair a single sensor (your HRM) with an umlimited number of receivers (eTrex30, VS, F2). You should have no problems with that but be sure when you set out that your VS is paired to your HRM and not someone else's. Your HR should show within one beat on all three devices.

One last question --- how can I force the eTrex30 and the F2 to record at similar intervals? The eTrex seems to record legs at 1 minute intervals and the F2 at 1 second intervals. This will undoubtedly lead to differences (I have seen differences in distance and elevation gain/loss). Thanks, Karin