A thought about Garmins fate

For us, Garmin is about the hardware, not the software. I have yet to buy a training device, be it Polar, Timex or Garmin because of the post processing software. Probably just as well, as they all have their failings. There are excellent alternatives out there.

Is Garmin about hardware or software? I'd suggest their focus is on the hardware. How would you wear an iPhone on your wrist in a swim or on a run?

Needless to say, I cannot speak for their mapping or navigation hardware. My only experience is with fitness devices.

For us, Garmin is about the hardware, not the software. I have yet to buy a training device, be it Polar, Timex or Garmin because of the post processing software. Probably just as well, as they all have their failings. There are excellent alternatives out there.

Is Garmin about hardware or software? I'd suggest their focus is on the hardware. How would you wear an iPhone on your wrist in a swim or on a run?

Needless to say, I cannot speak for their mapping or navigation hardware. My only experience is with fitness devices.

That's my point. Film was Kodak's hardware. When other companies started making film, Kodak kept an edge with better film. Didn't matter what camera. But with digital, film became Kodaks software. For Garmin, the threat they face is that the hardware WILL become obsolete with other hardwares being able to do what a Garmin will do. The point is, the software is becoming the difference. And don't think that hardware isn't coming to support the software coming out. When these companies put millions into apps for their product, and find that the hardware is the limiting factor, they will fix that.

I love my 705. But, I don't like the fact that I can't race against virtual partner without it dropping my readings. That's software (If the hardware is the cause, make new software to deal with limited hardware). And that's just one of the issues. And the fact is, as Garmin loses market share, the likelihood that more focus goes into the 705 software drops. That is a disappointing thought for me. I don't want these other apps, I want my 705 to do what it should do. I want the software to support the hardware so that my 705 won't become obsolete.

That'll be the day when Apple or Nokia and the ilk
manufactures sports watches.

Carrying a phone or phone-like beast around when
I'm running isn't an option.

That'll be the day when Apple or Nokia and the ilk
manufactures sports watches.

Carrying a phone or phone-like beast around when
I'm running isn't an option.

I believe you are wrong with your first statement. It might not be Apple or Nokia. It will be someone. There just isn't the proprietary stronghold on apps and hardware like in the past.

As for the second part, do you realize how many people jog and bike with ipods? When they can also record their workout while listening to music, I can see people being interested.

Your analogy is wrong.

If Kodak was the big film company, and they were replaced by digital.

Then what is Garmin and how does that compare?

Garmin works with digital hardware. Are you saying GPS satellites will become obsolete because of competing technology from cell phone companies?

The digital hardware is very flexible. It can do whatever Garmin wants with it. Take, for example, the Oregon and Dakota touchscreens. Revolutionary form factor change from previous hardware. I don't know what Garmin is supposed to be tied into or holding out for that's going to make the entire company become obsolete.

The small fitness device market is also not going to go away, and get replaced by anything cell phone or computer companies come out with. Maybe someone else will come along with a better small fitness device. I'm all for it. Competition only helps improve the choices out there.

The GPS device itself is not measured by the software that the company includes with it. I saw someone once say that Garmin's software is more of a proof of concept sort of thing just to show you a selection of things you can do with the data collected by the GPS. You can do a whole lot more with it, but that's outside the scope of free computer software.

The sooner the peanut gallery comes to terms with that, the less we'll hear on this forum about how crappy Training Center or Mapsource (and to some extent, Garmin Connect) is, and the more the discussions will be about people talking about what software they actually do use with their Garmin hardware.

I agree more or less with MTBIKERNATE. Kodak was around for what -- 100 years? Their area of expertise was chemistry in an era when chemistry played a major role in photography. Digital cameras are solid state devices, and production of these was a fairly mature industry, with lots of competition and sometimes low margin. It was also an area that Kodak had little experience with, and it would have been impossible for them to enter that market when everyone else had such a head start.

GPS is a maturing technology, but it's not saturated. Someday every car will have a GPS unit as standard equipment, just like all cars nowadays have FM radios and CD players. Then they will be large-volume commodities.

One example of how Garmin is trying to stay ahead of the game is their nuviphone, which is supposed to be a good phone with a great GPS. IMHO, they are entering a very crowded and competitive smart phone market without much to offer, but I'm not the CEO so time will tell if it was a good move or not.

MTBIKERNATE is correct that just because Garmin's software isn't the greatest, it doesn't mean that they are not forward leaning. Don't confuse the two. For better or worse, with a lot of companies, software is a bit of an afterthought.

I think what frustrates a lot of people with Garmin is that they hit a home run with their fitness products, but they could hit a grand-slam slam-dunk home run to clinch the world series if they would just do some seemingly simple things with their software. They are so close, yet so far. But there are good alternatives out there, fortunately, and perhaps Garmin's business model is to let the aftermarket worry about making good software. And it is interesting to compare Garmin's software to Polar and Suunto's. Something else to keep in mind is that (I think) the vast majority of Garmin users have relatively simple needs and are therefore happy with the basic features. I know some people never upload their workouts -- they just look at the summary screen when they are done and write the numbers in their paper log.

I think we need to look at Garmin from two perspectives; the exercise Garmins (Forerunner et al) and then portable units as one might put in the car. I think the portable units are already feeling the "pinch" from cell phones and the like. Heck sometimes I get better directions from google maps than I do the built in unit in my car. My thinking is that they will see the pressure there (portables) much more so than the "exercise" division. The markert for people to lay out the bucks for the watches is, in the scheme of things, relatively small, which is going to make it less attractive to other companies.

Kodak was actually one of the first to dabble in digital. They shelved it because they didn't feel it would be an issue for many years. They were about 10 years off.

Growth in any market that took many years years ago takes months today. Monopolies in the market are very short lived today. So many companies can do what many other companies can do with very little investment. People are writing apps in their houses when not that many years ago, very few people knew what an app was.

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/12/26/pedal-brain/

http://en.pedalbrain.com/home

Above is an example of what is coming out. I have no idea how good it is. My point is that phones have GPS built in. With software, there is no longer a need for separate GPS hardware. I don't own an iphone or touch, but for those that do, and if they use these on runs/rides anyway, why would they invest $500 in a 705 if they can get the same thing for much less for what they have?

I own a touch and a 705. The software aspect of the touch (and iphone) is impressive. The touch DOES NOT have a GPS. The iphone (newest model) uses very old low end gps hardware and then augments it with cell signals and wifi signals. Works great in civilization, but it's a POS in the woods when you don't have that augmentation. That low end gps hardware often won't work under heavy canopy cover like the early dedicated GPS hardware. The iphone is probably 15-20yrs behind the curve in this department.

So even the iphone (other phones are similar) can't compete with a dedicated GPS in a remote setting. The Nuvifone really is an improvement because it's a GPS first (uses modern gps hardware) and a phone later. But most people don't realize this. Better marketing would help. It would also help if it was available on more than just AT&T.

Right now, there really isn't much that can do what my 705 does. It records my heart rate. A bunch of devices do that. I can use it on my trainer indoors with no GPS. A number of different devices can do that. Fewer devices can do both. I can also turn the GPS on and take it outside and record GPS, heart rate, cadence, and even power if I got a compatible power meter. The only devices that can do that are Garmins.

What about the outdoor handhelds like the Oregon or Dakota? Well, they've got pretty modern GPS hardware with optimal reception in the woods. That is their intended use and they blow the iphone away. A few models work with the HR/cadense sensors, too. You can also use your own customizable raster maps on them. Doing so does not require you to spend ANY money on software. Nada. Free software gets the job done. There's some paid third party software that makes the process easier and gives you a selection of imagery to use.

Furthermore, when it comes to outdoor receivers, a phone or handheld computer of some sort doesn't even compare since it's not built to the necessary standards of waterproofness, dust protection, or shock. Garmin puts some effort into that, so you don't need a separate protective case. You do with your iphone or other gadget.

Battery life for dedicated outdoor receivers is also more in line with what outdoor users need. An iphone or other device needs supplementary power just for a long day. A dedicated outdoor device can go at least one, maybe more days without running out of batteries. User-replaceable common form factor batteries keep extra weight down for most situations.

Fitness devices are a different animal for batteries, since the primary concern is weight. They still will last plenty long to complete a vast majority of day-long activities.

Car GPS receivers is an entirely different market. You'll also notice entirely different players here. TomTom doesn't sell outdoor receivers of any kind. They sell car GPS receivers. A lot of other companies sell only car GPS receivers, and no other types. The software and basemaps that operate these things

Lowrance only sells outdoor receivers. I haven't seen a single car receiver from them. Magellan sells both, but their company has not been run well and they've lost a lot of the market share that they did have at one point.

My point is that Garmin has quite a lot of competitors, but none of them really seem to be causing that many significant problems. Maybe someday someone will find the formula to unseat Garmin from its 'king of the throne' position, but no current devices are going to do it.

Lots of good info MTBIKERNATE, thanks.

I bike on the open roads. I've used the gps feature on my verizon phone, and maybe because it was in a populated area, it was spot on. So, yeah, for remote or covered areas, I can see the problem. The app I linked seems to do everything you talked about in the Garmin. Even it it doesn't, it's a step. I don't see the next steps being far off. I'd like to see Garmin stay steps ahead. I don't think I'm wrong in thinking apps and hardware from competition are coming. Things just move so fast today.