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Garmin Performance data is bogus at best ... or I don't get it?

I don't know where to put this as I don't know if it's a Fenix or App problem but let me explain what the issue is. 

I am a 41 yo male, 180cm, 88kg. Historically my training always involved short hard efforts (Bouldering, Street Skateboarding, Track sprint cycling, aso) but over the years I switched to more balanced training. Lots of cardio, also running.

Problems are the following:

  • The fitter I get and the more endurance I have and the better I can keep my HR down on harder efforts the lower my VO2max gets according to Garmin. It in the low 38 almost 37 now where I run one long run between 13-21k and 2 other runs between 5-10k where one is an interval run every week. I usually train around 400 minutes per week But I always obey the rest period Garmin proposes. My VO2max started out at 46 when I was barely able to run a 5k without finishing in HR zone 5 where I now run a HalfM in zone 3 with an end sprint if I feel it.
  • ALL, yes ALL of my runs start out with a Perf Cond of -5 and usually progress down to -10. It does not matter at all what kind of run I do or how I feel doing it
    • if I feel like sh•t all run and can barely keep a pace -> -10
    • When I feel great and am better than what I planned for and even do more because I feel so great -> -10
    • When I just feel "normal"-> -10
    • It also does not matter how hard or easy the total effort is or if I vary intensity whatever.
      • Combine any of the above "feelings" with high/mid/low efforts and voila -> -10
    • The highest I have had in the last year was -1 which was today on a 14k run I finished with a 1minute final all out sprint. And hey I feel great after this run. Ok not true there was one +5 run which was barely a run because I didn't even get over a HR of 130 and the watch instantly complained that the effort was too low ... omg
  •  The watch in general tells me totally bogus things:
    • It recommends a hard effort to gain anaerobic "points" and I do so and manage to get a 2.0 rating ... "tooo much buddy"
    • It tells me to rest for 27 hours -> detraining, unproductive, or it even lowers my Optimal range
    • Last week I literally almost died from an extreme Cardio workout I just did way to long and kept way too hard but that was just too much fun and where I couldn't walk for 3 days because my whole body was just one sore mess -> Garmin: "effort too low"

I always wear a strap (HRM Run, H10) and for running even a Stryd pod for maximum accuracy.

What's going on here? Am I really that unfit or is something really off here? I have proof that I am way fitter then I have ever been and Garmin tells me "no you aren't .. it does not matter that your times and possibilities improved by an amount you never deemed possible you are just an unfit bum" with every training. I am currently really pissed off and even somewhat depressed because if I feel good after a training Garmin tells me that it was *** and I should be spent all the way or if I am totally spent it tells me that it wasn't enough.. If I get a new record Garmin acknowledges it but lowers my stats while doing it. The 5k and 10k predictions Garmin shows me are still slower than what I regularly do even though Garmin has multiple efforts where I beat their time easily. 

The only thing here that's accurate for me is calories burned ... well thank you for nothing

  • I would start by checking the max heart rate and heart rate zones. What is your max heart rate and how did you come to that value?

    For me I get values that don't seem to be off. Performance condition is often pretty spot on. When I'm feeling off and tired I get a negative score and for the most I get a score between 0 and 4.

  • My Max HR is set to 196. I think it was set through my track bike training that I did until 2 years ago. Would you recommend resetting this to 180 or anything or maybe even reset all of my HF-zones? Also what is a good way to base my HR zones on? % max HR, % LSHF, anything else?

  • Also what is a good way to base my HR zones on? % max HR, % LSHF, anything else?

    Based on the LTHR, performing the Guided Lactate Threshold Test, and having the auto-detection of the LTHR, is a good choice. You need a HRM chest belt, though.

  • Thanks for the advice. I will take a guided LT Test this week maybe when I have my interval run anyway. Everything is set to automatic anyway and as I said I use a chest strap all the time and for running I use Stryd. That leaves the HR reset question open

  • I think that if you set it to 180 you will get some messed up values for a while. It might work.

    I wonder which setting will give you the behaviour you describe. Too high or too low. The negative performance condition might indicate a too low value, but 196 is already pretty high. The same thing with VO2 max. A lower VO2 max might indicate a too low value. We don't know exactly how the algorithms work.

    HRV (heart rate variability) is also factor to consider. Is your body battery working as it should? Does it charge during sleep and you wake up with 100 or at least 75?

  • Body battery is working fine I think. I have a pretty bad sleep since I've had Covid in March but even during bad nights it's usually around 70-80. On good nights it's always 100. I will def do the LT test suggested and probably leave the HR zones for now. Maybe the LT test will adjust the HR zones, too. I don't know. I would be happy if I would find a setting where Perf Cond is not negative for every run. If that does not work I will try to reset HR. I'll keep you posted.

  • Maybe the LT test will adjust the HR zones, too.

    If you base the HR Zones on the LTHR, and keep the auto-detection of the LTHR, then the HR Zones will indeed adjust automatically, following your progress (or the regress).

  • I now wonder if Stryd Power zones have something to do with the decline since Garmin power zones show like 0.8x higher or something when using an HRM run? I had something similar with Garmin Bike PMs years ago when I tried them for track bike training and found out soon that Garmin's way of calculating performance from PMs is totally off for track bikes (coasting without cadence vs "coasting" with cadence but no wattage) Perf Cond was like -2 on a track bike on all out efforts vs +20 on a road bike on easy fun rides very consistently. But then cycling VO2max relies on a PM where running does not. And my Perf Cond was already that bad for running even before the Stryd which I got because I am running in forests mostly and Garmin GPS is so bad that I cannot even do any Garmin training plans because pace fluctuates all over the place. And pace does not correlate at all with what I do during my runs when I run in my local forest without Stryd but just GPS. So does Garmin use Power for PC calculation?

  • So over the course of the last weeks I have done the following:

    • Did an LT-Test which changed my HR Zones and shifted my maxHR down to 193 (even though it said that my max HR increased through that test ... weird)
    • reset my Stryd (to reset any calibrations that might have happened) and started using my HRM Run again since I noticed more drop-outs on my Polar 10

    What changed? Basically nothing except that my max HR was adjusted after yesterdays run to 196 (again)

    My Performance condition is still around 0 to -5 after a run. Okay it's better than -10 but still my VO2max will go down for unknown reasons. We'll see how things progress

  • The Garmin fitness intelligence is way off. VO2 max should be tested under max effort, Garmin has some kind of algorithm that just guesses. Lots of guys are using the metrics to paint a picture of fitness that's way off and irrelevant. 

    I like calculation on the Intervals.icu site, it uses max efforts and they have studies that indicate that the 5 minute max watt test is the closest to lab tests. 

    Garmin seems to favor long slow efforts over max efforts. I'm 45 to 46 on Garmin and 50.5 on intervals.icu and 49 on TrainingPeaks. Both use extensive data from power meters and heart rate bands. 

    The training recommendations are only occasionally useful. I use overnight resting heart rate and HRV to track fatigue. 

    The wearable fitness industry is more marketing than anything else.