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Training Load useless, please update your algorithms

razz
over 4 years ago

My VO2Max is rising (great :) ) but Training Load is dropping ....

please update your algorithms to calculate training load from all activities.... i know you like to 'save' money and that's why you don't calculate (such simple thing) from Forerunner 735XT (yes, i know it's a watch that calculates Load, but also i know it's just 1 or 2 simple formulas that i can program in any language; java/python/javascript etc ...)

for now i need to use different site/app to calculate my 'training load', coz Connect is useless ....

(i have some Training Load data from Edge 530, but i can't compare to my running activities ... )

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to trux

    TL;DR, I'll amend my statement to say:

    "Some of the Firstbeat algorithms do not require accurate HRV data"

    trux said:
    On most models it is indeed not saved with the data. I believe only Fenix 6 (and perhaps some other newer models) have the possibility to save the HRV data, but the question is whether Strava and TP use the HRV at all. The algorithms are patented by Firstbeat, who is now owned by Garmin.

    I agree but you specifically said that HRV data is not saved. I have a 935 which is one generation older than Fenix 6.

    trux said:
    OHRM delivers the HRV data too. Perhaps not on some old devices, but otherwise most of recent models with OHRM detect also the HRV, that is used for example for Stress detection, for Sleep analysis, for Body Battery, for VO₂max, etc.

    Again, when I use the chest strap, I see HRV data n runalyze, and when I don't use the chest strap (optical only), I don't see HRV data.

    Furthermore, the lactate threshold test, which is said to be highly dependent on HRV, is only available when wearing the chest strap. I am unaware of any Garmin device that can perform the lactate threshold test without a chest strap.

    Therefore, it seems that:

    - Optical HR does not provide accurate HRV (on my 935). (There must be a reason that R-R intervals are only available in runalyze when the chest strap is used, and not the optical HR. There must also be a reason that the lactate threshold test and HRV stress test require a chest strap.)

    - My 935 still estimates VO2Max, Performance Condition and Training Load regardless of whether I wear the chest strap or not

    Also, the Fenix 6 manual confirms that Fenix 6 still requires a chest strap for the HRV stress test.

    [https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/fenix66s6xpro/EN-US/GUID-6F1082A9-D190-420E-A31D-C4474A015322.html]

    Viewing Your Heart Rate Variability and Stress Level

    This feature requires a Garmin® chest heart rate monitor. Before you can view your heart rate variability (HRV) stress level, you must put on a heart rate monitor and pair it with your device (Pairing Your Wireless Sensors).

    I also saw this:

    https://forums.garmin.com/outdoor-recreation/outdoor-recreation/f/fenix-6-series/207006/stress-score-and-hrv-monitoring

    Going to be a little pedantic here. You need a chest strap, or something to pick up the electrical signal of the heart to be able to measure HRV. When using the optical heart rate, in fact any optical heart rate, it's the peak-to-peak of the pulse wave that is being measured then approximated to HRV (which measures the R-R interval of the PQRST complex of the electrical signal).

    So I must conclude:
    - Some of the Firstbeat algorithms do not require accurate HRV data

    Some algorithms may be using less accurate HRV data from the optical monitor, but that directly speaks to your argument about some algorithms being more approximate than others.

    trux said:
    The question is whether your Polar HRM supports the HRV and whether it sends the HRV data to Garmin in a compatible format.

    Can't speak to the Polar armband HR, but my understanding is that the Schosche armband optical HRM transmits "fake" HRV data in order to be compliant with the protocol.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to WillNorthYork
    WillNorthYork said:
    So I must conclude:
    - Some of the Firstbeat algorithms do not require accurate HRV data

    That's correct, but they still use the HRV data the OHRM provides. And that's exactly the data that is not being saved to the FIT file. It is only used live in real-time by the CPU of the watch.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to trux
    trux said:
    That's correct, but they still use the HRV data the OHRM provides. And that's exactly the data that is not being saved to the FIT file. It is only used live in real-time by the CPU of the watch.

    Fair enough. My mistake!

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to trux

    No, it doesn't but this is even more the case for the HRM on the watch itself. The fact that many devices will report a HRV or statistics derived from it does not mean those measurements are usefully accurate or precise. I do think the HRM measurement becomes much more precise if you are completely still. So, there may be some validity to the sleep statistics computed from HRV at the wrist. But, I would also take those with a grain of salt.

    More important is that multi-sport athletes have to keep in mind that cardiovascular load is just one facet of load. An hour of level three yoga should have no discernable cardio load if you do it right but it places a large load on your muscles (including your diaphragm but not your heart), connective tissues and proprioception. This load will have an effect on your run or paddle the next day. So, you need listen to your body. The Strava or TrainingPeaks statistics mostly just prod me to pay attention when I get carried away by endorphins.

    Also, Strava allows you to switch to perceived rather than computed load which works great for thinks like yoga and weight lifting if you can bothered to build a baseline and fill in this information with each activity.

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to stennican
    stennican said:
    Also, Strava allows you to switch to perceived rather than computed load

    Well, in that case you found the solution: use Strava for the percieved load, and Garmin Connect for the measured load Slight smile

    This is finally the exact reason Garmin is partnering with Strava, so that Strava complements the functionlity they do not offer. 

  • 0 over 4 years ago in reply to trux

    Absolutely, Strava is great and getting better quickly while Garmin is improving their hardware faster than other sports watch makers. And, TrainingPeaks has the graphing and planning flexibility that Garmin and Strava are missing. And, the Fit File Repair Tool allows me to quickly fix incorrect HR measurements and recalculate statistics. And, Polar does it's part by providing a better HRM solution.