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No calorie burn from non-exercise activity

MarttaHP
over 4 years ago

Last Saturday I burned 883 gross calories during my run. This was followed by nearly four hours of yard work, nothing too overly strenuous, but my HR looks to have remained around the same level as it does when I'm walking at a moderate pace. At the end of the day I had burned 862 active calories, i.e. my non-exercise activity apparently didn't quite burn enough calories to cover the RMR gap there.

Why would the watch almost entirely ignore the non-recorded activity? When I actually record a walk, my watch says I burn about 270-280 kcal per hour (which is a woeful overestimation for someone my size; I can't actually be burning much more than 200 kcal, but that's beside the point). So would it not follow that if I remained at around the same HR level for four hours, that would be the same as actually taking a four-hour walk? Shouldn't it have accounted for 1,000+ kcal according to the watch?

I rely on my watch for an estimate for my daily calorie burn since I count calories. I don't want to end up undernourishing myself.

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  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to Llaindyr
    Llaindyr said:
    However, that's the complete opposite to what you're telling me in that it also uses all of these other measurements (something that in and of itself is super confusing when you actually break it down.)

    Sorry, I do not understand what is opposite, and what is confusing. There is the Daily Goal (RMR unless you change it in MFP) that is calculated on the basis of your body parameters. And then there is the Adjusted Daily Goal including the Active Calories that are calculated on the basis of the HR and the HR Variability (24/24, regardless of recording). The EPOC-induced calories (based on the Activity Class) are included in the Active Calories (AFAIK).

    It is that simple, there is nothing complicated or confusing on it.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to trux
    trux said:
    The unadjusted Daily Goal is basically the RMR.
    trux said:
    There is the Daily Goal (RMR unless you change it in MFP) that is calculated on tha basis of your body parameters

    You're talking crap here mate, no offense. RMR is calculated using one of two formulas:

    • H&B Formula that was revised in 1984 - [(13.75 x WKG) + (5 x HC) - (6.76 x age) + 66] x 1.1 where WKG is weight in KG and HC is Height in Centimeters.

    • Mifflin-St Jeor Formula - (10 × WKG) + (6.25 × HC) - (5 × age) + 5

    As per the screenshot I provided earlier (and included below for ease), this is nowhere close to the Daily Goal that's shown in Garmin:

    So you're absolutely, 100%, undoubtedly wrong about your assertion that "The unadjusted Daily Goal is basically the RMR."

    Further to this, if what you say is even close to being true, what's the '697 - Resting Calories' in the screenshot above? It's counted in the 'Total Calories Burned' number, and then magically disappears from the Adjust Goal? It certainly doesn't come out of the Daily Goal, which is what you're saying is the Resting Metabolic Rate.

    I'm starting to think you've got no idea what you're talking about.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to Llaindyr
    Llaindyr said:
    RMR is calculated using one of two formula

    ... and some others (for example Cunningham), which does not mean Garmin / FirstBeat cannot use their own adjusted formula based on their own research and experience. 

    Llaindyr said:
    what's the '697 - Resting Calories' in the screenshot above?

    Exactly what it tells - the Resting Calories. For the relevant part of the day, unlike the Daily Goal for the 24 hours.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to Llaindyr
    Llaindyr said:
    Further to this, if what you say is even close to being true, what's the '697 - Resting Calories' in the screenshot above? It's counted in the 'Total Calories Burned' number, and then magically disappears from the Adjust Goal? It certainly doesn't come out of the Daily Goal, which is what you're saying is the Resting Metabolic Rate.

    Total Calories Burned show the values at the given time of the day. Adjusted Goal, as the name suggests, shows the planned Calorie Goal for the entire day (24 hours). Only the Active part reflects the current time here too, since it is not known how much you'll still exercise in that day. So what I wrote still stands - Daily Goal is RMR (unless you changed it in MFP), and Resting Calories is the RMR for the past time of the day.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to trux
    trux said:
    and some others (for example Cunningham), which does not mean Garmin / FirstBeat cannot use their own adjusted formula based on their own research and experience. 

    Garmin doesn't know Body Fat % so it can't use Cunningham.

    If Garmin/FirstBeat's own research indicates that people are consuming around 1000-700 calories per day less than what they should be consuming just at an RMR, then everyone would be dead. I cannot agree with you here.

    However, do you know what I think the Daily Goal actually is? I think it's Garmin automatically upping your daily calorie intake depending on what your Activity Class selection is. And I DO NOT mean your inclusion with EPOC metabolism post-exercise or whatever.

    I'll be able to confirm tomorrow because I've just changed it back to 0, but my daily calorie requirements on the Garmin Connect App before I changed it to 10 were around 2800-3000 calories. This was my RMR + Logged Activity Calories. So for today, this is what Cronometer, the only one I trust right now, shows for my calorie requirements:

    That's the RMR (pink) + the calories burnt in the activities logged with my Garmin (orange). This is how normal people calculate how many calories they need to consume per day to maintain/lose/gain weight.

    Now that I've changed the Activity Class to reflect the amount of exercise that I do as you suggested, all of a sudden my Daily Goal is the same as what my manually tracked daily calorie goal was? That's too coincidental.

    trux said:
    Total Calories Burned show the values at the given time of the day. Adjusted Goal, as the name suggests, shows the planned Calorie Goal for the entire day (24 hours).

    Happy to accept that that's how it should be read - that formatting interpretation makes sense to me (excluding the figures that it provides)

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to trux
    trux said:
    (for example Cunningham)

    Addendum: I do actually know my Body Fat % and I used this calculator: https://peterbond.org/calculate-rmr-cunningham-equation to confirm that my RMR is still around 2000cals. Well short of the 2800 that's in the Garmin App.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to Llaindyr
    Llaindyr said:
    I think it's Garmin automatically upping your daily calorie intake depending on what your Activity Class selection is.

    Yes, that's what I always thought too, that the Activity Class is adding the EPOC-induced Calories based on the Activity Class to the RMR or Daily Goal, but when tested the last time, I did not see its impact. That why I wrote "AFAIK" for the extra Calories being added to the active part. However, it is unimportant to the final result, whether the extra Calories are being added to the pasive or to the active part, since the total result will be the same anyway.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to trux
    trux said:
    it is unimportant to the final result, whether the extra Calories are being added to the pasive or to the active part, since the total result will be the same anyway.

    Disagree, and perhaps I'm not making myself clear enough.

    If what I think about the Daily Goal is correct, and that it is being increased based on the amount of hours you've told Garmin that you're going to exercise per week, that means that you do not need to log any activities and you'll still be consuming enough calories, based on the height/weight Garmin has, to stay at the same weight. By increasing the Activity Class to 10, you're effectively telling Garmin, "I want you to take my RMR, and add the amount of calories you think I'll burn in each exercise if I work out 15 hours per week". Given that that's just over 2 hours of exercise per day, it makes sense that it add 800 calories in my case, as that's what I burn in my 2 hours of exercise in the morning.

    If you do log activities, you're double-dipping on calories burnt. In this example, you should only log exercises that are outside the normal 15 hours per week that you've told Garmin. So in my case, I could not log any activities, stick to consuming 2800 calories per day, and I would neither gain nor lose weight, as that's my RMR + 2 hours of exercise.

    By having the Activity Class set to None, it tells Garmin, "I want you to show me the Daily Goal if I don't do any exercise, and I will add exercises manually by logging activities." As I've just changed my Activity Class back to 0, this will be confirmed one way or another tomorrow.

    Does that make more sense?

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to Llaindyr
    Llaindyr said:
    If what I think about the Daily Goal is correct, and that it is being increased based on the amount of hours you've told Garmin that you're going to exercise per week,

    The Calories are increased by the EPOC Calories triggered by the exercise according the Activity Class. The Calories of the activity self (regardless or recording or not recording), are being calculated in real-time from the HR and HRV.

    However, the effect will be similar to what you described - the final total daily goal will be increased, regardless whether the EPOC Calories are being added directly to the Daily Goal, or continuously with the Active Calories to the Adjusted Daily Goal. 

    By setting the Activity Level to zero, the reported Active Calories will be quite low, (as far as I can tell from my experience) and you'll be dissatisfied again.

    If you find the RMR or the Daily Goal are too high, call the support and tell Garmin that they have it wrong. Or get a free MFP account and change it there. Never mind you find it sleazy - once you set it up, you do not need to use MFP anymore at all, if you do not wish to.

  • 0 over 3 years ago in reply to trux

    All right so - here's the update. I delayed in replying as I wanted time to test the various options. Firstly, I got an answer back from Cronometer about the 'Daily Activity (Garmin)' part of their app and it makes sense, both from a number and why I wasn't seeing the correct figure in the morning:

    The Daily Activity from Garmin includes calories burned above your RMR that is also not included in one of your workouts. This includes things like walking around while you go about your day. Though Garmin includes both activity and workouts in the Active Calories number in their dashboard, we separate it out so you can see each workout. The Daily Activity will update throughout the day as you get more movement, too.

    Second, the Daily Goal for Calories shown on Connect page is undoubtedly using H&B as it's base, if not using it almost entirely. My Garmin is currently set to None for Activity Class, which means that it's giving me the bare-bones calories I would need to survive. These are almost identical between Garmin, and a H&B Calculator found online.

    Calculator from HERE

    Lastly, I've noticed no difference in calories burnt across 3 different types of workouts - Treadmill, Strength, or Walk. 

    • Treadmill - 250-300 calories burnt/30 mins when on Activity Class 0 and Activity Class 10
    • Strength - roughly 600 calories burnt/60 mins when on Activity Class 0 and Activity Class 10
    • Walk - roughly 600 calories burnt/90 mins (~10,000 steps) when on Activity Class 0 and Activity Class 10

    So, with that in mind, here are my findings and why I'll not be using any of Garmin's Calorie Counting:

    1. The Daily Goal calorie amount is using the H&B Equation.
    2. Increasing the 'Activity Class' means that it's telling you increase your calorie intake (the 'Daily Goal') incorrectly as your actual logged activities are added on as well ('the 'Adjusted Goal')
      1. Note: As with all Calorie Calculators, using the PAL means that you're effectively telling the calorie calculator to calculate the food to consume based on the amount of exercise you tell it you do. If you use the PAL and then also log the activities, you are double-dipping and you will be consuming way too many calories. For example, Activity Class 'None' = 2330 calories + 600 calories for strength = 2930 calories to consume that day. Comparatively, Activity Class 10 = 2800 calories + 600 calories for strength = 3400 calories, equaling excess of 500 calories. The EPOC study you provided makes no sense in the two examples I've given so I don't think it applies at all.
    3. Activity Class plays almost no bearing, if at all, on the calories burnt during an exercise. This is based on personal experience over a number of weeks, comparing heart rates/activities/calories burnt.
    4. If you use Activity Class, it will not accurately calculate physically exerting tasks that you may do throughout the day that are outside of logged workouts.
      1. Note: This was evident in the breakdown explanation from Cronometer. If you have your Activity Class set to 'None' in Garmin, your Daily Goal is simply what you need to consume to survive. If I go and chop wood for an hour, it'll correctly show that there's another (for example) 300 calories I need to consume to make up for the difference between survival calories and (survival calories + Wood chopping calories). However, if you have your Activity Class set to 10, if will not count the wood chopping because your Daily Goal needs to be exceeded for the wood chopping calories burnt to show. This is the 'Daily Activity (Garmin)' field in Cronometer that I've been referring to and lines up with the explanation given by Cronometer for how they split things out.

    So, in conclusion: 

    • Use Garmin for fitness tracking and the calories burnt in logged exercises as it appears to accurately mimic what you'd expect for that exercise (i.e. A person my height/weight would roughly burn 500-600 calories/10000 steps on a brisk walk).
    • Do not use Garmin's calorie counting metrics if your activity class is anything except 'None' if you log your workouts.