routes with street intersections as viapoints, NOT POIs

I hope you discover your error once you read further in the thread, or in other related threads. First, Basecamp does nothing you could consider even remotely similar to a "Save As".
...ken...

Well I did some further testing, and really began to think maybe there was no way to edit a route, and leave the original untouched. As with a "Save As"

I tried several methods using routes in My Collection, and also in My Lists.

Then I right-clicked my original route in My Collection, and used the "Duplicate" command.

BC then created a new version of my original route in My Collection, with a "1" appended.

I then dragged this new route with the 1, to a new My List, and edited it without changing the original.

As near as I can determine, this will work to edit an existing route in BC, and leave the original unmodified.

Or is there a error in this method also. I am glad you pointed out my first method really wouldn't work.

I'm hardly a BC or MS expert. Just trying to get used to using BC.

I just read further in this thread about the problem with "Duplicate", and how points that are "moved" will be moved in the original also.

Adding or Deleting points apparently doesn't affect the original, but "moving" the points, also moves them in the original.

Looks like my post confirms the old adage "better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than speak and confirm it"

Back to lurk mode :-)

Hi DSEPANSKI,

We all learn differently. It sounds like you are a bit like me. Sometimes I learn best by jumping into the scrum. That risks the occasional slap in the head. But sometimes that's exactly what I need to properly absorb the info. :eek:

The duplication method has another issue that should also have been touched on somewhere in the thread. If you want to be able to completely "erase" what you were doing without losing any of the original data you must also duplicate any of the original waypoints you want to use. This allows you to "delete list & contents" without deleting the original waypoints from the collection.

There are so many ways you can screw yourself up with Basecamp if you do not fully understand its underlying data model AND exactly what behaviour that will produce in any use case. It's extremely difficult for most people to fully assimilate the fact that NOTHING exists in lists ... That the only place anything exists is in the collection. When you don't know that lists only contain pointers to the actual object in the collection or don't really understand what that means when you are working it's really easy to shoot yourself in the foot. Or maybe blow it right off.

Basecamp really requires a proper backup function so you can easily recover from self-induced injury as you learn the hazards first-hand.

...ken...

The duplication method has another issue that should also have been touched on somewhere in the thread. If you want to be able to completely "erase" what you were doing without losing any of the original data you must also duplicate any of the original waypoints you want to use. This allows you to "delete list & contents" without deleting the original waypoints from the collection.

Was this what Falagar meant when he suggested we shouldn't use our Home in a Duplicated route?

I didn't see a further explanation from him as to why.

There are so many ways you can screw yourself up with Basecamp if you do not fully understand its underlying data model AND exactly what behaviour that will produce in any use case. It's extremely difficult for most people to fully assimilate the fact that NOTHING exists in lists ... That the only place anything exists is in the collection. When you don't know that lists only contain pointers to the actual object in the collection or don't really understand what that means when you are working it's really easy to shoot yourself in the foot. Or maybe blow it right off.

I think I understand the concept of the actual object only residing in the Collection. However, I have no idea whatsoever how that relates to using the copies in the lists, or the actual objects.

Basecamp really requires a proper backup function so you can easily recover from self-induced injury as you learn the hazards first-hand.
...ken...

Yes, I've already caused myself a bit of extra work. Mostly as it relates to deleting waypoints or routes.

I'll keep reading the posts in this Forum, even though most of it goes right over my head.

I'm also going to keep trying to learn what works properly in BC, and what is going to need more work from Garmin. It seems obvious the issue of Duplicating routes needs more work from Garmin.

I'm definitely going to be a bit more judicious in my posting however.

Thanks for the patience.

Don

Was this what Falagar meant when he suggested we shouldn't use our Home in a Duplicated route?
I didn't see a further explanation from him as to why.
...
I think I understand the concept of the actual object only residing in the Collection. However, I have no idea whatsoever how that relates to using the copies in the lists, or the actual objects.

I'm not sure about the comment not to use our "Home". Maybe the following will help.

If you put the names of some things into a list, there are two reasons you would do that. The first is to make it easier to view them in a way that works for you. Perhaps it's easier for you to view things if you have lots of data and decide to organize it into lists which contain only Tracks, only Routes, only Waypoints, and so on.

The other reason to use lists is to make it easier to work with your data. This relates to what we are discussing. I may have a single route that I want to work with, specifically to try different ways to get where I'm going. Perhaps I want a more interesting route on side roads rather than the usual "shorter distance/faster time" options that the automatic routing forces me to use.

Using a list allows me to isolate the items I want to work with. I can copy the names of only those things I want to work with into a list so I don't have the distraction of all the other stuff I may have accumulated in the library.

There are two significant issues with doing this in Basecamp.

First, if I just copy the names of things in the library into the list, any changes I make in the items in the list are actually being made to the originals in the library. That's because the items in the list are not copies of the original items. They are copies of the names and are just pointers back to the original items.

That means you are ALWAYS making changes to the original items because there are NEVER any copies.

That means there is NEVER such a thing as a "temporary" change in Basecamp.

If you change something, no matter whether you make the change to the original object in the library or to the copy of its name that you put in the list, it's the original item that is being changed.

Basecamp instantly and automatically saves all changes as you make them. So the changes are permanent.

So if we want to make "temporary" changes you must make your own copies of the original items you wish to experiment with. You can ONLY do that by first duplicating them with a different name than the original. Then you can copy the names of the duplicated items into a list to experiment with.

There are, again, two things that make this a colossal pain or dangerous or both.

Remember the first point above that the lists are only names and the original objects only live in the library. So if you do not want to risk changing something accidentally, you must duplicate ALL the items you need for your experiments before you populate the list. If you have waypoints and/or custom POIs in the route you want to experiment with, you have to make duplicates of all of them.

Now we get to the second issue. Remember that this was temporary experimentation and once we're done there's a good chance we'll want to just delete everything in the list.

There are two ways to get rid of a list. You can remove the list or you can remove the list & contents.

Simply removing the list just gets rid of that list of copied names. It does not remove the items that are named in the list. So if you do that, all those duplicated items are left cluttering up the library.

You will most likely want to remove the list & contents. That removes the list of copied names AND removes all the named items from the library, too. So now it's all cleaned up and we're back where we started (that's just what we wanted, so that's good).

But wait..... What if we want to keep the modified route because it's exactly what we want??

If we remove the list AND its contents, all that good work is gone. So we have to do some more duplicating.

We have to go back to the library and duplicate the route we were experimenting with so it will survive when we delete the list and its contents. We will do that because we still want to get rid of all the other duplicated stuff.

Of course we will also have to duplicate any other items that we may have added as we did our experimentation, e.g. If we had to create or modify some waypoints, etc., we'll need to remember which ones they are and duplicate them.

But wait...!! If we keep that duplicated route and it contained some original waypoints what do we do to make sure they also survive the removal of the list and its contents. ... ?? ... Well, we have to go back to the library and duplicate them, too.

So if we want to save the modified route resulting from our experimentation and be certain it will work correctly, we will end up with duplicates of waypoints in the library that we cannot remove.

........... Which highlights Yet Another problem with this whole silly process.

Back when we duplicated the route and any waypoints that are used in the route, we've automatically guaranteed that the duplicate route won't work anyway. All of the duplicated waypoints that the route is using will have different names than the waypoints contained in the route.

Upon reflection, it really doesn't matter whether you understand the whole process. It's just too much of a mess to make any sense. Better to simply install the last version of Mapsource and use it any time you want to experiment with routes.

...ken...

Upon reflection, it really doesn't matter whether you understand the whole process. It's just too much of a mess to make any sense. Better to simply install the last version of Mapsource and use it any time you want to experiment with routes....ken...

I don't use many waypoints when planning routes, but I do experiment with existing routes in order to make alternatives that might be more challenging to ride. And I do what you suggest as to making a new list, dragging a few waypoints and a route to the new list. Then I usually duplicate the route in the new list, which automatically creates a new name. Then I remove the old route from the new list as it's no longer needed. I have my new database item.

Time to experiment. I can remove waypoints from the new route, add new waypoints. Snap a line or two. Get discouraged or encouraged. But I never move a waypoint because there is nothing more important or unique to a waypoint than its position. No need to copy waypoints. They are here or they are over there. One waypoint one position.

Let's say I'm encouraged with my new route. I rename it with something significant, and drag it to an appropriate existing list or leave it where it was born and maybe rename the current list to something significant. I might remove a waypoint or two from this list as they were not used by the new route, or delete some waypoints because they were created for this route but in the end, not needed. If you make a mistake and attempt to delete a waypoint that is currently active on a route somewhere, it won't get executed. You're safe.

If I'm discouraged with my new route, I delete the route and its contents. No existing waypoints will be harmed in the making and unmaking of this route. If they are needed else where in the database, they will remain in the library. Feel free to remain with MapSource, it's still swell and I think you might be over complicating the BC process.

Now, I read and reread your latest post to make sure I was getting the drift, then went out into the BC world and did my modify thing and it works pretty well. There may be something about 'changes to waypoints' I don't understand fully, but my routes are a changing and my database is staying relatively clean.

Hi Marc,

Yes, that was a lot of words. My point is that most often I want to experiment with a route with the expectation that I will toss it when I'm done. With Mapsource I mess around all I want and when I'm done I simply exit without saving it. Couldn't be simpler. Nothing to understand or be concerned about.

With Basecamp there is much to consider before you start or you run some risks. Even a scenario as simple as yours should be, isn't. It's more complicated than it needs to be.

I was just trying to illustrate some of the things that you need to be aware of before you start. All of them are related to the fact that lists contain nothing but names. And that can cause us trouble in multiple ways.

...ken...

Well, I don't think I will ever make Ken into a fan of BaseCamp's data model. :)

One change we are planning on making that will hopefully help to alleviate some of the concerns is to change the "Remove list and contents" functionality to "Remove list and unique contents". This should make sure you don't accidentally delete contents that are also present in other lists.

My work-flow is usually something like this (I mostly create tracks for my Oregon to do leisurely biking trips).

1. I have past tracks, planned tracks as well as waypoints in My Collection (in several lists).
2. I have a 'Planning' list that I use for my planning purposes.
3. I now drag all the tracks and waypoints that I plan on using for this particular planning session into the 'Planning' list.
4. I duplicate the tracks I want to mess with and remove the original tracks from the 'Planning' list (by hitting the Delete key).
5. I use the duplicated tracks to create my next ride (by removing points, drawing more tracks lines, combining tracks etc.) till I end up with my final planned track.
6. I move the finished track to another 'My Planned Rides' list (and send it to the GPS eventually).
7. I get rid of everything in the 'Planning' list. Right now it is sometimes difficult to see if the data in 'Planning' is unique data that only exists in this list (so I do want to remove it entirely from My Collection, because I don't want all my temporary planning data cluttering my Collection) or not (then I don't want to remove it from My Collection, because then I would "steal" it from other lists).
8. The new "Remove list and unique contents" should make this task much simpler. There is no real good use for "Remove list and contents" once you have a slightly more complicated database with lots of lists. Right now you can just remove the list (possibly leaving a lot of "orphaned" data in My Collection) or the list and contents (and possibly removing data from other lists that you didn't want to delete).

I agree my work-flow looks a bit more complicated than "Open File in MapSource, change stuff, then decide if you want to save or not". But a better comparison would be that you have to collect data from several gps files in MapSource (less trivial than just grabbing stuff from lists in BaseCamp). And then you have the whole file handling stuff going on. In BaseCamp you don't need to worry where you have what, remember to save it to the right place etc.

The issue with 'Duplicate Route' not duplicating the waypoints (Duplicate is not making a 'deep copy', it's just copying the route but references the same waypoints of the original route, it doesn't copy the waypoints) is a tricky one. I am not convinced you would always want a deep copy. Which is why I used the 'Home' waypoint example. You probably wouldn't want to have a new 'Home' waypoint every time you created a route duplicate that happens to include 'Home'.

I know we're just voices crying in the wind and the Basecamp model is not going to change but I really can't let posts that perpetuate the myth that MS+File=Complicated and Bad and Basecamp+Database=Easy and Good go without comment as I'm afraid it's nonsense.

Kevin

I totally agree. Well said.