routes with street intersections as viapoints, NOT POIs

Lack of waypoint categories is a complete showstopper for me, Falagar. I have all my waypoints categorized, some with multiple categories. I use many of the waypoints like custom POIs except it saves having to mess with custom POIs. Yes, it was a minor nuisance having to establish the same categories on my devices as well as on Mapsource, but it's a trivial bit of work and you only have to do it once. The payoffs are worth it.

We'll see what we can do about categories.

While we're on the subject, this brings up another shortcoming of Basecamp. You can't do bulk changes in Basecamp. In Mapsource I can select a number of waypoints, select Waypoint Properties and change things like the category and symbol for all of them at one time. Can't do that in Basecamp.

Yes you can now, I forgot when we added that. Even for tracks and routes, unlike MapSource. We do listen to what you say sometimes... ;)

By the way, you kind of slid right by John's concern about having to import all your data into Basecamp's library and the dangers once it's there. Once that stuff is in the library it is no longer treated seperately as it is when you are storing it in Windows folder/file structure. Once it is in the library it is subject to Basecamp's whims and we have little or no control over that.

That is true, but this approach seems a lot easier to grasp for the non-power user. I understand that some people (usually the ones who posts on boards like these :) ) like more control, but we feel (maybe wrongly) that for the majority of our users having all the data in one place, and not having to worry about files and directories is the easier approach.

That is something we (as developers) also need to take into consideration. We never hear from the average users. They don't tend to post here. So we need to be careful not to get overly complicated, while still trying to give power users what they want. That cannot always work, of course.

I can do none of that with Basecamp. Once it's loaded into Basecamp that's the only version you've got and every time you make a change it's automatically "saved". There's no going back.

Well, there is Backups you can do. Then there is the *.bak files you can fall back on if you want to roll back. We also keep old Databases, so if you upgrade from 3.1 to 3.2, we will keep the 3.1 around in case something went wrong. But I understand what you mean, of course. However, that is how BaseCamp was designed. It's an app with a consistent database, not a document-based one.

John gave the example of making a change that affects all routes rather than just the one you are working with. I do the same thing John described, frequently (yeah I'm another one of those pesky bikers who insists on going off the beaten track most of the time). It's just not safe to do those sorts of things in Basecamp because you have no idea what else will get screwed up in the process ... just the route you are experimenting with is bad enough or, worse, maybe all the other routes in the library as well.

BaseCamp warns you about this particular thing, so it's not like this just happens without your knowing it. I did outline how you can change route preferences for each particular route.These settings are stored per route (unlike in MapSource, where you only have global route settings).

In Mapsource I can experiment with route options and shaping all I want. If I don't like the results I just don't save the file. Next time I load the file the route is back the way it started.

Duplicate a route, experiment, delete if you don't like it. :)

Re: using filters. Sorry, I just find it so much easier that Mapsource has tabs for that so I don't have to mess with filters. And filters only temporarily change the display so you have to do them again every time you run Basecamp. It's not like there is a whole whack of things to separate. There are waypoints, routes, tracks and maps. That's it. There is absolutely no advantage to mix them all together in no apparent order and every reason to automatically organize them as Mapsource does on its tabs (not pushing for tabs, just for permanent automatic organization of the display so I don't have to always do it ... actually I don't ever want to have to do it).

We also have GeoCaches, Custom Maps, Birdseye and geotagged photos. I really think this is just something to get used to (or not). I (again, I am biased) get along with the filters just fine.

I'm not ready to commit any of my data to Basecamp until I have assurance that changing one thing (route, etc.) will not cause a change to anything else and I have a lot more control over where things go and what Basecamp can and cannot do with/to my data. Mostly I don't want it to do anything unless I tell it to,
explicitly.

Changing one thing usually (please point out when it does and we don't warn the user) doesn't change other things.

And I want a really really simple way to get back to a known previous good state of the data, like being able to just reload a data file in Mapsource.

Backup->Restore can just be seen as Open/Save if you want to.

Another positive aspect to the way we work with Mapsource is that it's really hard to get a data file messed up with an accumulation of irrelevant crap and even if you get some junk in one that you don't want, it's easy ... downright trivial ... to get rid of it. I have multiple Garmin devices that I use. In Mapsource it's dead simple to keep the data separate that I want separate. Not so much in Basecamp. As soon as I connect a device everything on it is automatically sucked into the library and nothing I can do to control it.

Nothing gets sucked into the My Collection when you connect a device. You have to actively put it there from the device. We display everything on the device, of course.

Jeez, it's hard to me to keep up with this thread. Again, I appreciate all the feedback!

I'll try to address one after another.



One way to achieve this in BaseCamp would be to use folders to categorize data. When you put something from My Collection into a folder it doesn't get moved there, it just creates a reference. So you can waypoints (or routes, tracks...) in several folders at the same time.
OK I'm feeling like a moron. For the life of me I cannot see a way to create a folder in any pane. Not under any menu and not under any right click menu. Hmmmm....



Context-menus might seem simple to you (now that you have learnt how to use MapSource)
I think you don't give most users enough credit. Or maybe I expect too much. I use context menus in every program I use not just mapsource



Two things here. One, BaseCamp not immediately recognizing your device (probably an older USB device like the GPS 60?) is a bug in BaseCamp 3.2.1, which will be fixed in 3.2.2. 2720

Two, you can drag-and drop data to your device, right-click on data and use "Send To", or use the main menu: Edit -> Send To.Yes I figured it out



Just in case you did not see that elsewhere: BaseCamp 3.2.1 has an issue with track duplication, so please don't use that till 3.2.2 is available.Thanks

You can choose the order of the joined tracks in the Track Join tool. Use the arrows to move track segments.Saw that. Clunky

Editing data on the USB stick will be possible in a future maintenance release.Thanks

Responses inline above...

John

Are you trying to create folders on the device? That does not work (yet...).

You can only create folders in My Collection, either by right-clicking or by using the menu.

If the app and device could agree on symbols, those could be used as a form of categorization.

I agree entirely. This is no easy task though because pretty much ALL the devices (and you are probably aware Garmin has a ton of different models) would have to play along. We will try to make it happen, but this won't happen in the short term.

Yeah that is bothering me more and more as I play with BC. In one folder I have five versions of the same file with different suffixes:
co_tat.gdb
co_tat_mod.gdb
co_tat_big_bike.gdb
co_tat_hancock_tomichi.gdb
co_tat_NM_BV.gdb

These are all versions of the original with some added or subtracted sections. Without the 'save as' function I don't see an easy way to get this. You can't just modify a route without losing the original. Automatically and unprompted.

The other thing I haven't investigated is where BC stores new routes you create. Need to know that for the nightly backup.

John

You should be able to make a duplicate of a route and then make changes to it.

BaseCamp stores its data at %APPDATA%\GARMIN\BaseCamp (just type or copy that into the Windows explorer location bar and hit Enter). The actual database (for 3.2) is at %APPDATA%\GARMIN\BaseCamp\Database\3.2.

I think the difference in the two programs is more fundamental.

IMO MapSource is the equivalent of a stick-shift vehicle. You have full control over what happens and when. However you can't drive (unless cruising) with a coffee in your hand, talking on a cell phone etc. It's a "drivers" program.

BaseCamp on the other hand is an automatic. You get in, start the engine and just press on the gas pedal. You can eat your McDonalds and/or talk on the phone while driving (and many DO!). What's a clutch and who needs one anyway?

MapSource was developed over a decade ago before mass market GPS units existed. It got the job done but you had to understand what was going on.

IMO BaseCamp is intended for the modern "I just want it to work" type of user.

These two philosophies are opposites and it's difficult, without different programs or an "expert mode", to reconcile them. That said Garmin has obviously decided, probably for resource/cost reasons, to support the predominate philosophy (i.e. BaseCamp).

Personally this is a step backwards for me as I've been using MapSource, and other Garmin software and devices, for over a decade. That said I know I'm a dying breed. Catering to advanced users doesn't make a lot of sense when 95% of users "just want it to work" without thinking.

That's my 2c worth anyway ;-)

I think you have us figured out. :)

Only works up to opening the route properties dialog box. Once I drag the waypoint over to the properties box the null circle appears. What I can do is drop the waypoint on top of the route and it will insert it at the bottom of the route on the properties box. But I still can't click on it and drag it. I can highlight it, click the up arrow and it will move up one place. If I want to move it up two places, I have to repeat the same process.

Again this is version 3.2.1 with XP and service pack 3

You have to drag into the left box of the route properties dialog. A plus cursor will appear and a black line where you can choose where to insert the waypoint.

I have tested this multiple times, I am reasonable certain that this works.

Are you trying to create folders on the device? That does not work (yet...).

You can only create folders in My Collection, either by right-clicking or by using the menu.

Windows XP SP3 BaseCamp 3.2.2 I don't have it. Here's screenshots of the menus
File--new--


Right click My Collections



John

Here's screenshots of the menus

'Add new list to library' is what you want. :)

I apologize for my bad wording, I got 'list' and 'folder' mixed up.